Re: Florida Statute According to RLB

["tourman" <rh.campbell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

> tourman wrote:
> > Jumping Judas....<
>
> Ughhh just when I had you broken in you resort to your old ways. It's
> not "Jumping Judas" it's "What the fuck?"
> I am done talking to you until you start cursing again.

RHC: Actually, the reality is, I can swear like a trooper when the
situation warrants it. But this is a newsgroup haunted by
professionals, and conducting yourself accordingly is in keeping with
what the newsgroup is (or should) be about. Existing customers of mine,
and even some potential ones have been known to lurk here, and I don't
want to come across to them as a foul mouthed lout ! We have a couple
of them here already.

When I was young, I worked for the US Air Force in Goose Bay, Labrador.
In those days, a lot of young, black men from Mississippi and Alabama
worked up there. Back in those days (mid 60's), the armed forces were
pretty much the only opportunity they had to escape from abject poverty
and racial bias. Most couldn't even read or write to any meaningful
degree. But they COULD swear ! Even now, fifty years later, I have to
watch myself. It's a bad habit that's too easy to fall back in to !!

Like I've said, I'm here ONLY to discuss security issues and debate
points of disagreement like we are doing here, but in an intelligent
way. Sure I have my hot buttons, and I'll continue to warn clients
against the industry practice of restrictive, multi year contracts when
they are not paying down a system. And yes, I'm an opinionated old SOB
(like RLB has said several times), but who the hell isn't in this
newsgroup. I've worked in three or four different industries in my
life, and frankly, I've yet to find another industry that is as full of
hard headed, opinionated, and somewhat inflexible people as ours is.
But so be it, 'cause I sure fit right in !!!!!

> Hacking isn't wrong?

RHC: Depends. Look at the computer industry. You have hackers for many
reasons - some bad, some good. It depends upon the circumstances and
the motive. You have hackers that break into databases for criminal
intent. And you have hackers who form companies to hack into things to
make the necessary changes so that the bad guys can't hack in. Ask
Microsoft about that.....:)))

> How about picking a lock for someone without them proving the property
> (house, car, store) belongs to them?
> Hacking IS wrong and unethical when you don't have solid proof the
> property belongs solely to your client.
> If the client has proof of ownership then it's fair game.

RHC: You forget, I am a locksmith. And yes, you would never open a home
to anyone other than the homeowner standing there in front of you with
proof that he lives there. I have done it many times. The only other
time is when the baliff is out there for a legal eviction and has a
legal document authorizing the opening of the door. But this is a far
cry from unlocking a piece of hardware that has been made useless by
someone else;s abuse of the feature. I agree, right of ownership is a
bit of a cloudy issue, but seeing what I see with the abuse that occurs
more often than not, I'll take my chances on that fine point. But if
you want to split hairs, you have a valid point.

 > I brive a dus wrote:
> > > IF the customer signed a contract agreeing that at all times the panel
> > > remains property of the alarm company then it is wrong to unlock that
> > > board. Ownership of a proprietary panel doesn't change in a real estate
> > > transaction between the client and new owner of the house.
> > > Using proprietary information to unlock boards is also wrong IMO.
> > > It's hacking.

RHC: I don't unlock Ademco boards at all. I have nothing to do with
them in my business. I also understand they can only be locked via
download software. I hand ADT takeovers that involve Ademco equipment
to someone else, and the feedback I get is they are never locked
anyway. And if they were ADT proprietary boards, I suspect when they go
to put it on line with their station, they'd find that out immediately,
since they would be useless. So there really is no issue with this kind
of thing.
> > >
> > > If it's not a proprietary panel or a leased system, and the customer
> > > owns it outright then have at it, but unlocking anything other than a
> > > client owned system is unethical.

RHC: As I've said, I don't and wouldn't unlock any board that is
clearly the property of someone other than the supplier of the board.
We agree totally on that point. However, the glitch is in how do you
prove ownership, and that is a bit of a grey area. But given the people
who bulk ship to me, I take their word that nothing illegal is
happening.

You and I can split hairs all day. I don't totally disagree with your
intent, and you and I agree with the ethics of the situation. But the
reality is that the industry abuses this feature just as often as  they
use it legitimately. I only deal with the bad uses of it.

I think at this point, you and I will have to agree to disagree on this
point. Always good talking to you Tom....