Re: Florida Statute According to RLB

["I brive a dus" <alarminstall@xxxxxxx>]

tourman wrote:
> > tourman wrote:
> > > Jumping Judas....<
> >
> > Ughhh just when I had you broken in you resort to your old ways. It's
> > not "Jumping Judas" it's "What the fuck?"
> > I am done talking to you until you start cursing again.
>
> RHC: Actually, the reality is, I can swear like a trooper when the
> situation warrants it. But this is a newsgroup haunted by
> professionals, and conducting yourself accordingly is in keeping with
> what the newsgroup is (or should) be about. Existing customers of mine,
> and even some potential ones have been known to lurk here, and I don't
> want to come across to them as a foul mouthed lout ! We have a couple
> of them here already. <

My name isn't Fowler by accident


> When I was young, I worked for the US Air Force in Goose Bay, Labrador. <

When you were young the only thing flying launched from a slingshot.

> In those days, a lot of young, black men from Mississippi and Alabama
> worked up there. Back in those days (mid 60's), the armed forces were
> pretty much the only opportunity they had to escape from abject poverty
> and racial bias. Most couldn't even read or write to any meaningful
> degree. But they COULD swear ! Even now, fifty years later, I have to
> watch myself. It's a bad habit that's too easy to fall back in to !! <

The proper statement would be "That shit's a bad fucking habit and way
too easy to fall back in to"

> Like I've said, I'm here ONLY to discuss security issues and debate
> points of disagreement like we are doing here, but in an intelligent
> way. Sure I have my hot buttons, and I'll continue to warn clients
> against the industry practice of restrictive, multi year contracts when
> they are not paying down a system. And yes, I'm an opinionated old SOB
> (like RLB has said several times), but who the hell isn't in this
> newsgroup. I've worked in three or four different industries in my
> life, and frankly, I've yet to find another industry that is as full of
> hard headed, opinionated, and somewhat inflexible people as ours is.
> But so be it, 'cause I sure fit right in !!!!! <

Apparently you've never been involved in the pizza business.

> > Hacking isn't wrong?
>
> RHC: Depends. Look at the computer industry. You have hackers for many
> reasons - some bad, some good. It depends upon the circumstances and
> the motive. You have hackers that break into databases for criminal
> intent. And you have hackers who form companies to hack into things to
> make the necessary changes so that the bad guys can't hack in. Ask
> Microsoft about that.....:)))
>
> > How about picking a lock for someone without them proving the property
> > (house, car, store) belongs to them?
> > Hacking IS wrong and unethical when you don't have solid proof the
> > property belongs solely to your client.
> > If the client has proof of ownership then it's fair game.
>
> RHC: You forget, I am a locksmith. And yes, you would never open a home
> to anyone other than the homeowner standing there in front of you with
> proof that he lives there. I have done it many times. The only other
> time is when the baliff is out there for a legal eviction and has a
> legal document authorizing the opening of the door. But this is a far
> cry from unlocking a piece of hardware that has been made useless by
> someone else;s abuse of the feature. I agree, right of ownership is a
> bit of a cloudy issue, but seeing what I see with the abuse that occurs
> more often than not, I'll take my chances on that fine point. But if
> you want to split hairs, you have a valid point. <

I know you are a locksmith which is why I used that example instead of
replying to the auto one.
The ownership issue is a black and white issue (signed contracts either
being in force or having expired). Proprietary and leased systems have
no business being unlocked by anyone not associated with the companies
that own those panels. That's the bottom line.


>  > I brive a dus wrote:
> > > > IF the customer signed a contract agreeing that at all times the panel
> > > > remains property of the alarm company then it is wrong to unlock that
> > > > board. Ownership of a proprietary panel doesn't change in a real estate
> > > > transaction between the client and new owner of the house.
> > > > Using proprietary information to unlock boards is also wrong IMO.
> > > > It's hacking.
>
> RHC: I don't unlock Ademco boards at all. I have nothing to do with
> them in my business. I also understand they can only be locked via
> download software. I hand ADT takeovers that involve Ademco equipment
> to someone else, and the feedback I get is they are never locked
> anyway. And if they were ADT proprietary boards, I suspect when they go
> to put it on line with their station, they'd find that out immediately,
> since they would be useless. So there really is no issue with this kind
> of thing.
> > > >
> > > > If it's not a proprietary panel or a leased system, and the customer
> > > > owns it outright then have at it, but unlocking anything other than a
> > > > client owned system is unethical.
>
> RHC: As I've said, I don't and wouldn't unlock any board that is
> clearly the property of someone other than the supplier of the board.
> We agree totally on that point. However, the glitch is in how do you
> prove ownership, and that is a bit of a grey area. But given the people
> who bulk ship to me, I take their word that nothing illegal is
> happening.
>
> You and I can split hairs all day. I don't totally disagree with your
> intent, and you and I agree with the ethics of the situation. But the
> reality is that the industry abuses this feature just as often as  they
> use it legitimately. I only deal with the bad uses of it.
>
> I think at this point, you and I will have to agree to disagree on this
> point. Always good talking to you Tom.... <

We agree on most of it, but it's a shame people have to resort to
unlocking boards. It's bush league
Why, if you were the alarm dealer, would you want to takeover someone
else's headache when for less than a C note you can swap the board?

Why, if you were the customer, would you want to continue using the old
board when for few bucks you can have a new one?

Why, if you were the original installing company, with the customer
satisfying all contract terms and no longer wanting to conduct business
with you, would you not want to spend a few minutes of download time
making sure the old panel is offline with your central, and that your
old customer doesn't part ways with you thinking you're a low class
outfit?

The answers are not surprising.
The alarm dealers doing the takeovers, and the existing clients are too
cheap to swap the boards.
Trunkslammer meets penny pincher. What a nightmare.

The installing company is not unlocking the boards out of spite. It has
zip to do with the money and everything to do with anger over losing a
customer. They feel the customer will give in and renew with them but
if they don't then nobody will be able to use their stuff.

Have a Happy fucking New Year Bob :-)