Re: Florida Statute According to RLB

["I brive a dus" <alarminstall@xxxxxxx>]

IF the customer signed a contract agreeing that at all times the panel
remains property of the alarm company then it is wrong to unlock that
board. Ownership of a proprietary panel doesn't change in a real estate
transaction between the client and new owner of the house.
Using proprietary information to unlock boards is also wrong IMO.
It's hacking.

If it's not a proprietary panel or a leased system, and the customer
owns it outright then have at it, but unlocking anything other than a
client owned system is unethical.

On a side note, you're cursing like a sailor lately, Bob, and it's
about fucking time.

tourman wrote:
> > >> I don't care much about proprietary
> > >> panels since I usually just replace
> > >> them. I don't unlock panels either.
> > >> If a customer wants that I send them
> > >> to Bob Campbell or Jim Rojas. It's
> > >> not worth my time and trouble to get
> > >> set up and learn the procedures for
> > >> that.
> >
> > > Proprietary -  : one that possesses, owns,
> > > or holds exclusive right to something...
> >
> > OK, we're talking about two different things.  By "proprietary" I mean junk like Sonitrol panels that no one else can service.  You
> > mean panels with proprietary information in them.  I understand your position and I also understand Bob's.  (No one understands Jim
> > Rojas, but that's because his voice is muffled by all that junk in his garage:)).
>
> RHC: Well, since I'm being drawn into this discussion, I'll state my
> position in the clearest possible terms. What I and several others do
> is to simply default panels back to factory thathave been locked in
> software. ALL information disappears when that is done, proprietary and
> otherwise, and what the client receives in return for a few bucks is a
> panel which is as good as factory new - period - and with all the
> factory new information in it. No one sends us true proprietary panels,
> because defaulting them back to factory would serve no real purpose.
> They would still be unusable on any other monitoring station or with
> any other company other than the one that they were originally set up
> to work with So why bother with them ? For example, Merlin is a
> proprietary Paradox board, built for (I think) Microtech in Toronto.
> When I get them in as part of a bulk purchase of boards, they go
> straight in the garbage. Other than the fuse on board and the leads,
> they are useless material to anyone. Nor has anyone every sent me one
> for unlocking.
>
> Let me also set the record straight. Unlocking boards is not wrong in
> any sense of the word. It's simply a unique service available to anyone
> who wants it. Of course there is no way to really know if a board is
> stolen, or the unlocking is being done on a board which is rightfully
> not paid for, or is still under contract. That's between the two
> companies in question as RLB points out!  But I do know that the
> majority of boards that come my way for that service come from a number
> of large, reputable customers. The many incidental ones I get come from
> homeowners who in more than a couple of cases have had the experience
> of buying a home with a fully paid for alarm, and finding the original
> company won't unlock it unless they  give in to extortion (sign a long
> term contract and we'll do it for you kind of thing...).  And you know
> how I feel about that shit !!! Or often the original dealer has
> disappeared and simply cannot be traced.
>
> Both DSC and Paradox are well aware I do this up here in Canada. I've
> spoken to representatives from both companies that I know on more than
> one occasion about it. Several of the wholesalers even refer local
> business to me as it comes to them from other buying dealers. Legally,
> there is nothing wrong with it. I'm not reverse engineering anything,
> and I can assure you, if the factories felt there was any wrongdoing
> here, they would take action on it. At most, they might be annoyed that
> I would be taking sales away from them for boards that might otherwise
> need to replaced with new ones. In a lot of cases, I am able to put
> back in service, boards which are not available from the factory
> anymore because they are no longer made (DSC Classic series). Frankly,
> in balance, I am sure I end up undoing more real "wrongs" than I do
> creating any injustices. And I make a very small amount of money for
> the service in the process (and when did anyone here ever object to
> that !!...hell...if I worked it out .. hours of experimentation, cost
> of equipment purchased and custom built, I'm probably working at about
> two cents an hour.....)
>
> And frankly, when it comes right down to it, I don't give a tinkers
> damn what anyone thinks either. I am an honest person and I wouldn't
> knowingly do something that would ever take food out of another honest
> dealer's mouth (and you'll just have to take my word for that...) I got
> into this some years ago because when I first started in business, I
> had customers come to me with locked boards, and the companies wouldn't
> unlock them. In one case, I was there when they laughed at the
> homeowner /alarm owner and hung up in his ear !!  That didn't sit too
> well with me....
>
> I have every intention of learning how to do a lot of other makes as
> well in spite of the large investment in time and energy this will take
> ! The only ones who would ever have anything to fear are the unethical
> dealers who lock fully paid for and fully customer owned boards and
> refuse to give up control when appropriate to the customer.  And they
> are in a very small minority as we all know. Frankly, I don't give a
> shit about them; the industry would be better off without them (I was
> pleased to see the biggest offender in Ottawa recently sold his
> company) Frankly, the whole issue is a "storm in a teacup"
> >
> > > What they are doing is wrong. Paint it,
> > > polish it, wrap it up anyway you'd like
> > > but they are wrong.
> >
> > I guess they feel differently that if the customer comes to them with an unusable panel that has been locked out it's up to the
> > customer and whoever he bought the panel from to decide whose property the panel is.  If it's fully paid for, I agree that it's the
> > customer's property.  If not, Jim and Bob have no way of knowing that.  They are providing service to person in possession of the
> > device.
> >
> > I think a fair analogy is the fellow who drives into a service garage.  He asks the mechanic to fix his car because the alarm is
> > screwed up.  The mechanic doesn't really know if he stole the car or paid for it.  He fixes the alarm so the customer can use his
> > car again.  If it was stolen, it is the responsibility of the proper owner to persue the matter with the police.  In the case of an
> > alarm system the dealer who sold or leased it has the option to persue the errant client in court.
>
> RHC: Another analogy is the customer who goes into a car dealership and
> buys a car. He pays for it and walks out. When it needs service, he
> finds the hood is completely locked, and he has to go back to the
> selling dealer even for an oil change. Then once his payments are over,
> he is still forced to go there whether he wants to or not. I've never
> seen a dealer do either....
>
> Apparently though, there IS a real life issue much the same as this
> between the large automotive makers and the independant garages with
> the rights to computer diagnostic information. Automakers don't want
> the independants to have access to information they must have to
> properly diagnose and service today's latest high tech cars. That
> battle is still raging on....May the little guys win....
>
> RHC