Re: Florida Statute According to RLB

["I brive a dus" <alarminstall@xxxxxxx>]

tourman wrote:
> Jumping Judas....<

Ughhh just when I had you broken in you resort to your old ways. It's
not "Jumping Judas" it's "What the fuck?"
I am done talking to you until you start cursing again.

> I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself... <

Try Beano. It works wonders for the repeats

> I get boards from someone, and I unlock them. If that party
> deliberately stole the board or has no right to it, how the hell would
> anyone other than the thief know about that. And that would be an issue
> between the thief and his victim. <

I bet pawn shop brokers wish they could get away with that.

> If I suspected it was stolen, of
> course I would question it and if I suspected it was stolen, and still
> proceeded, then yes, I would be guilty of some sort of crime. But how
> do you know anything you buy second hand is stolen or not. Lets be
> realistic here ! <

All ADT panels (like Safewatch) are the property of ADT.  When a client
foolishly signs with ADT that is one of the stipulations agreed to.
You know what type of panels you receive so don't act naive when it
comes to what panels are proprietary and what aren't.

> And I don't use proprietary information of any sort in the process of
> unlocking boards. And of course it's sophisticated hacking of a sort.
> That's how its done.
>
> I'ts not wrong in any sense. If it was, I simply wouldn't be doing it. <

Hacking isn't wrong?
How about picking a lock for someone without them proving the property
(house, car, store) belongs to them?
Hacking IS wrong and unethical when you don't have solid proof the
property belongs solely to your client.
If the client has proof of ownership then it's fair game.
Otherwise you're compromising your dignity and reputation for a few
bucks.

> RHC
>
> I brive a dus wrote:
> > IF the customer signed a contract agreeing that at all times the panel
> > remains property of the alarm company then it is wrong to unlock that
> > board. Ownership of a proprietary panel doesn't change in a real estate
> > transaction between the client and new owner of the house.
> > Using proprietary information to unlock boards is also wrong IMO.
> > It's hacking.
> >
> > If it's not a proprietary panel or a leased system, and the customer
> > owns it outright then have at it, but unlocking anything other than a
> > client owned system is unethical.
> >
> > On a side note, you're cursing like a sailor lately, Bob, and it's
> > about fucking time.
> >
> > tourman wrote:
> > > > >> I don't care much about proprietary
> > > > >> panels since I usually just replace
> > > > >> them. I don't unlock panels either.
> > > > >> If a customer wants that I send them
> > > > >> to Bob Campbell or Jim Rojas. It's
> > > > >> not worth my time and trouble to get
> > > > >> set up and learn the procedures for
> > > > >> that.
> > > >
> > > > > Proprietary -  : one that possesses, owns,
> > > > > or holds exclusive right to something...
> > > >
> > > > OK, we're talking about two different things.  By "proprietary" I mean junk like Sonitrol panels that no one else can service.  You
> > > > mean panels with proprietary information in them.  I understand your position and I also understand Bob's.  (No one understands Jim
> > > > Rojas, but that's because his voice is muffled by all that junk in his garage:)).
> > >
> > > RHC: Well, since I'm being drawn into this discussion, I'll state my
> > > position in the clearest possible terms. What I and several others do
> > > is to simply default panels back to factory thathave been locked in
> > > software. ALL information disappears when that is done, proprietary and
> > > otherwise, and what the client receives in return for a few bucks is a
> > > panel which is as good as factory new - period - and with all the
> > > factory new information in it. No one sends us true proprietary panels,
> > > because defaulting them back to factory would serve no real purpose.
> > > They would still be unusable on any other monitoring station or with
> > > any other company other than the one that they were originally set up
> > > to work with So why bother with them ? For example, Merlin is a
> > > proprietary Paradox board, built for (I think) Microtech in Toronto.
> > > When I get them in as part of a bulk purchase of boards, they go
> > > straight in the garbage. Other than the fuse on board and the leads,
> > > they are useless material to anyone. Nor has anyone every sent me one
> > > for unlocking.
> > >
> > > Let me also set the record straight. Unlocking boards is not wrong in
> > > any sense of the word. It's simply a unique service available to anyone
> > > who wants it. Of course there is no way to really know if a board is
> > > stolen, or the unlocking is being done on a board which is rightfully
> > > not paid for, or is still under contract. That's between the two
> > > companies in question as RLB points out!  But I do know that the
> > > majority of boards that come my way for that service come from a number
> > > of large, reputable customers. The many incidental ones I get come from
> > > homeowners who in more than a couple of cases have had the experience
> > > of buying a home with a fully paid for alarm, and finding the original
> > > company won't unlock it unless they  give in to extortion (sign a long
> > > term contract and we'll do it for you kind of thing...).  And you know
> > > how I feel about that shit !!! Or often the original dealer has
> > > disappeared and simply cannot be traced.
> > >
> > > Both DSC and Paradox are well aware I do this up here in Canada. I've
> > > spoken to representatives from both companies that I know on more than
> > > one occasion about it. Several of the wholesalers even refer local
> > > business to me as it comes to them from other buying dealers. Legally,
> > > there is nothing wrong with it. I'm not reverse engineering anything,
> > > and I can assure you, if the factories felt there was any wrongdoing
> > > here, they would take action on it. At most, they might be annoyed that
> > > I would be taking sales away from them for boards that might otherwise
> > > need to replaced with new ones. In a lot of cases, I am able to put
> > > back in service, boards which are not available from the factory
> > > anymore because they are no longer made (DSC Classic series). Frankly,
> > > in balance, I am sure I end up undoing more real "wrongs" than I do
> > > creating any injustices. And I make a very small amount of money for
> > > the service in the process (and when did anyone here ever object to
> > > that !!...hell...if I worked it out .. hours of experimentation, cost
> > > of equipment purchased and custom built, I'm probably working at about
> > > two cents an hour.....)
> > >
> > > And frankly, when it comes right down to it, I don't give a tinkers
> > > damn what anyone thinks either. I am an honest person and I wouldn't
> > > knowingly do something that would ever take food out of another honest
> > > dealer's mouth (and you'll just have to take my word for that...) I got
> > > into this some years ago because when I first started in business, I
> > > had customers come to me with locked boards, and the companies wouldn't
> > > unlock them. In one case, I was there when they laughed at the
> > > homeowner /alarm owner and hung up in his ear !!  That didn't sit too
> > > well with me....
> > >
> > > I have every intention of learning how to do a lot of other makes as
> > > well in spite of the large investment in time and energy this will take
> > > ! The only ones who would ever have anything to fear are the unethical
> > > dealers who lock fully paid for and fully customer owned boards and
> > > refuse to give up control when appropriate to the customer.  And they
> > > are in a very small minority as we all know. Frankly, I don't give a
> > > shit about them; the industry would be better off without them (I was
> > > pleased to see the biggest offender in Ottawa recently sold his
> > > company) Frankly, the whole issue is a "storm in a teacup"
> > > >
> > > > > What they are doing is wrong. Paint it,
> > > > > polish it, wrap it up anyway you'd like
> > > > > but they are wrong.
> > > >
> > > > I guess they feel differently that if the customer comes to them with an unusable panel that has been locked out it's up to the
> > > > customer and whoever he bought the panel from to decide whose property the panel is.  If it's fully paid for, I agree that it's the
> > > > customer's property.  If not, Jim and Bob have no way of knowing that.  They are providing service to person in possession of the
> > > > device.
> > > >
> > > > I think a fair analogy is the fellow who drives into a service garage.  He asks the mechanic to fix his car because the alarm is
> > > > screwed up.  The mechanic doesn't really know if he stole the car or paid for it.  He fixes the alarm so the customer can use his
> > > > car again.  If it was stolen, it is the responsibility of the proper owner to persue the matter with the police.  In the case of an
> > > > alarm system the dealer who sold or leased it has the option to persue the errant client in court.
> > >
> > > RHC: Another analogy is the customer who goes into a car dealership and
> > > buys a car. He pays for it and walks out. When it needs service, he
> > > finds the hood is completely locked, and he has to go back to the
> > > selling dealer even for an oil change. Then once his payments are over,
> > > he is still forced to go there whether he wants to or not. I've never
> > > seen a dealer do either....
> > >
> > > Apparently though, there IS a real life issue much the same as this
> > > between the large automotive makers and the independant garages with
> > > the rights to computer diagnostic information. Automakers don't want
> > > the independants to have access to information they must have to
> > > properly diagnose and service today's latest high tech cars. That
> > > battle is still raging on....May the little guys win....
> > >
> > > RHC