Re: Esprit 728 keypads

[Jim <alarminex@xxxxxxx>]

On Feb 24, 9:30=EF=BF=BDpm, tourman <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Feb 24, 9:02=EF=BF=BDpm, mleuck <m.le...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 24, 5:30=EF=BF=BDpm, tourman <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 24, 1:44=EF=BF=BDpm, Jim <alarmi...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 24, 9:13 am, tourman <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > RHC: I actually wrote the president of Paradox about this issue o=
f non
> > > > > compatibility. Needless to say, I didn't even get the courtesy of=
 a
> > > > > reply.
>
> > > > > In speaking with others within the company, the whole idea of bac=
kward
> > > > > compatibility was "poo pooed" as a non issue, and not even practi=
cal
> > > > > if they plan to be innovative in their development of new product=
s for
> > > > > the market.This is classic big company "bullshit" thinking -sell =
like
> > > > > hell and forget support.!!!! Who the hell do they think thieir
> > > > > customers are??? Piss dealers off and they doom themselves in the=
 long
> > > > > run
>
> > > > > One thing I have noticed in this industry, most alarm people are =
quite
> > > > > "reactionary" and somewhat unforgiving of companies that mess wit=
h
> > > > > their business. All it takes is one bad experience with a comany'=
s
> > > > > products and they remember forever - even after the original prob=
lem
> > > > > has been resolved.
>
> > > > > Frankly, if they didn't make such good products, I would consider
> > > > > going back to DSC for my installations. As it is, I do more DSC
> > > > > installs now than I had ever planned to do......
>
> > > > > Paradox, I hope you're listening (but then you have to care as
> > > > > well.....)-
>
> > > > I'm sure that everyone is aware that this is not a new "problem" th=
at
> > > > every manufacturer has to deal with.
>
> > > > There's a point that every manufacturer has to decide upon where th=
ey
> > > > break the line. They can't keep making product backward compatable
> > > > forever. It becomes increasingly more expensive to design in backwa=
rd
> > > > compatability as time moves on. It doesn't make sense to make a new
> > > > product more expensive for that diminishing quantity of product in =
the
> > > > field and the fewer and fewer installers that want to support them.
> > > > There seems to be something in some installers book of rules that s=
ays
> > > > that a manufacturer has an obligation to produce a =EF=BF=BDproduct=
 that has
> > > > an eternal life expectancy and period of support. In reality they
> > > > don't. And it's actually a marketing decision as well as bottom lin=
e.
> > > > Their dilemma is ..... How many installers are we going to lose or
> > > > piss off or please by the increased cost of new design that include=
s
> > > > backward compatability .... versus the number of installers we're
> > > > going tolose or piss off by cutting off backward compatability? =EF=
=BF=BDAlso
> > > > in consideration of pricing new product and adding features to meet
> > > > compitition, do we eliminate new inovations in new products in favo=
r
> > > > of providing backward compatability?
>
> > > > Every manufacturer will draw a different line.
>
> > > > As for me, I think about 10 years back is good enough. To off-set
> > > > that, I keep a few of each of old equipment that I've pulled out, t=
hat
> > > > I think I might be able to use in the future. I keep programing chi=
ps
> > > > and used keypads mostly and some panels. =EF=BF=BDAnd, if it so hap=
pens that I
> > > > don't have the item that's needed, =EF=BF=BDthen the client will ju=
st have to
> > > > bite the bullet and get something new. Could I lose an account over
> > > > it? Yeah, sometimes. But if it's a real hardship case, there are
> > > > panels out now that are inexpensive enough that will take the place=
 of
> > > > some of this old equipment very easily. In most of these instances,=
 if
> > > > I don't have the necessary part, I''ll just switch out the equipmen=
t
> > > > for cost, just to help out. These are usually retired folks or wido=
wed
> > > > singles that are on limited income.
>
> > > > To me, this is not a big issue but I can appriciate that it could b=
e
> > > > for larger companys.
>
> > > RHC: Jim, I understand the the rational =EF=BF=BDbehind what both you=
 and Mark
> > > are saying, and I don't disagree in those cases. You are talking
> > > compatibility for some ten years here; however, with Paradox, we are
> > > talking only a couple of years at most. For example, they brought out
> > > the Spectra line 1728/1738 panels and they were latest and greatest
> > > for only about two years. Then they announced the newer Magellan
> > > 5000/6000/7000 series, which looked identical to the older line, but
> > > were not in any way compatible. Even the memory key being used for th=
e
> > > new line is different from the old. The keypads are not compatible,
> > > nor are the expander boards....nothing. AND they stopped production
> > > totally of the older equipment totally, so nothing is now available t=
o
> > > buy to replace boards or keypads that are defective.
>
> > > Two years is not an acceptable time for this kind of thing to happen
> > > in my opinion.There are a number of other products they have done thi=
s
> > > with as well
>
> > I can understand your anger at that, what has always confused me about
> > Paradox was the sheer number of panels they have, I thought the
> > Magellan was the all in one system but it appears to also be a
> > standard panel?
>
> RHC: Magellan is an all in one device, but Magellan is the name of a
> line of panels including the SP series of devices and also wireless
> devices. Its kinda confusing actually They have the SP5000, 5050, 6000
> and 7000 panels which are their standard (right now). If they screw
> with these like they did with the Spectra series, I'm gone: they're
> history......-

I know less than nothing about Paradox however, since the trend in the
industry over the last 10 or 15 years has been for manufacturers to
make panels that were fewer but more versatile, I can't imagine why
they would find it competitive or less expensive, production-wise,
making more varieties rather than making fewer.

BUT.... on the other hand, now that I think about it .......... Napco
started their Gemini line with the 3200 and 9600 which, for the times,
were the "all in one"  panels. Then competition drove them to produce
the 1632 and then the Freebee market has driven them to the 800 line
of weenie panels. And now the 1664 is being used ( I think) to open up
a new line of panels with some innovative/different features.
So ...... I guess that could be Paradox's reasons also.

As far as the "Spectra" line. You say they bought it out. I presume it
was another manufacturer (?) If so, then I would say the purchase of
the line was to get rid of a potential competitor, obtain some
technology that they wanted, some real estate (ie production
facilities), some production tools and machinery,  engineering staff,
and a following,  etc, etc etc. The actual product and or it's method
of production was probably not compatable with their own set up and it
would have been too costly to retain it. The company may have been on
it's last leg and ready to go out and Pardox got it for a song.

Just a guess. Ademco was famous for doing just that, for years and
years.