Re: Esprit 728 keypads

[tourman <robercampbell@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Feb 25, 12:22=A0am, Jim <alarmi...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Feb 24, 9:30 pm, tourman <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 24, 9:02 pm, mleuck <m.le...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 24, 5:30 pm, tourman <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 24, 1:44 pm, Jim <alarmi...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Feb 24, 9:13 am, tourman <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > > RHC: I actually wrote the president of Paradox about this issue=
 of non
> > > > > > compatibility. Needless to say, I didn't even get the courtesy =
of a
> > > > > > reply.
>
> > > > > > In speaking with others within the company, the whole idea of b=
ackward
> > > > > > compatibility was "poo pooed" as a non issue, and not even prac=
tical
> > > > > > if they plan to be innovative in their development of new produ=
cts for
> > > > > > the market.This is classic big company "bullshit" thinking -sel=
l like
> > > > > > hell and forget support.!!!! Who the hell do they think thieir
> > > > > > customers are??? Piss dealers off and they doom themselves in t=
he long
> > > > > > run
>
> > > > > > One thing I have noticed in this industry, most alarm people ar=
e quite
> > > > > > "reactionary" and somewhat unforgiving of companies that mess w=
ith
> > > > > > their business. All it takes is one bad experience with a coman=
y's
> > > > > > products and they remember forever - even after the original pr=
oblem
> > > > > > has been resolved.
>
> > > > > > Frankly, if they didn't make such good products, I would consid=
er
> > > > > > going back to DSC for my installations. As it is, I do more DSC
> > > > > > installs now than I had ever planned to do......
>
> > > > > > Paradox, I hope you're listening (but then you have to care as
> > > > > > well.....)-
>
> > > > > I'm sure that everyone is aware that this is not a new "problem" =
that
> > > > > every manufacturer has to deal with.
>
> > > > > There's a point that every manufacturer has to decide upon where =
they
> > > > > break the line. They can't keep making product backward compatabl=
e
> > > > > forever. It becomes increasingly more expensive to design in back=
ward
> > > > > compatability as time moves on. It doesn't make sense to make a n=
ew
> > > > > product more expensive for that diminishing quantity of product i=
n the
> > > > > field and the fewer and fewer installers that want to support the=
m.
> > > > > There seems to be something in some installers book of rules that=
 says
> > > > > that a manufacturer has an obligation to produce a product that h=
as
> > > > > an eternal life expectancy and period of support. In reality they
> > > > > don't. And it's actually a marketing decision as well as bottom l=
ine.
> > > > > Their dilemma is ..... How many installers are we going to lose o=
r
> > > > > piss off or please by the increased cost of new design that inclu=
des
> > > > > backward compatability .... versus the number of installers we're
> > > > > going tolose or piss off by cutting off backward compatability? A=
lso
> > > > > in consideration of pricing new product and adding features to me=
et
> > > > > compitition, do we eliminate new inovations in new products in fa=
vor
> > > > > of providing backward compatability?
>
> > > > > Every manufacturer will draw a different line.
>
> > > > > As for me, I think about 10 years back is good enough. To off-set
> > > > > that, I keep a few of each of old equipment that I've pulled out,=
 that
> > > > > I think I might be able to use in the future. I keep programing c=
hips
> > > > > and used keypads mostly and some panels. And, if it so happens th=
at I
> > > > > don't have the item that's needed, then the client will just have=
 to
> > > > > bite the bullet and get something new. Could I lose an account ov=
er
> > > > > it? Yeah, sometimes. But if it's a real hardship case, there are
> > > > > panels out now that are inexpensive enough that will take the pla=
ce of
> > > > > some of this old equipment very easily. In most of these instance=
s, if
> > > > > I don't have the necessary part, I''ll just switch out the equipm=
ent
> > > > > for cost, just to help out. These are usually retired folks or wi=
dowed
> > > > > singles that are on limited income.
>
> > > > > To me, this is not a big issue but I can appriciate that it could=
 be
> > > > > for larger companys.
>
> > > > RHC: Jim, I understand the the rational behind what both you and Ma=
rk
> > > > are saying, and I don't disagree in those cases. You are talking
> > > > compatibility for some ten years here; however, with Paradox, we ar=
e
> > > > talking only a couple of years at most. For example, they brought o=
ut
> > > > the Spectra line 1728/1738 panels and they were latest and greatest
> > > > for only about two years. Then they announced the newer Magellan
> > > > 5000/6000/7000 series, which looked identical to the older line, bu=
t
> > > > were not in any way compatible. Even the memory key being used for =
the
> > > > new line is different from the old. The keypads are not compatible,
> > > > nor are the expander boards....nothing. AND they stopped production
> > > > totally of the older equipment totally, so nothing is now available=
 to
> > > > buy to replace boards or keypads that are defective.
>
> > > > Two years is not an acceptable time for this kind of thing to happe=
n
> > > > in my opinion.There are a number of other products they have done t=
his
> > > > with as well
>
> > > I can understand your anger at that, what has always confused me abou=
t
> > > Paradox was the sheer number of panels they have, I thought the
> > > Magellan was the all in one system but it appears to also be a
> > > standard panel?
>
> > RHC: Magellan is an all in one device, but Magellan is the name of a
> > line of panels including the SP series of devices and also wireless
> > devices. Its kinda confusing actually They have the SP5000, 5050, 6000
> > and 7000 panels which are their standard (right now). If they screw
> > with these like they did with the Spectra series, I'm gone: they're
> > history......-
>
> I know less than nothing about Paradox however, since the trend in the
> industry over the last 10 or 15 years has been for manufacturers to
> make panels that were fewer but more versatile, I can't imagine why
> they would find it competitive or less expensive, production-wise,
> making more varieties rather than making fewer.
>
> BUT.... on the other hand, now that I think about it .......... Napco
> started their Gemini line with the 3200 and 9600 which, for the times,
> were the "all in one" =A0panels. Then competition drove them to produce
> the 1632 and then the Freebee market has driven them to the 800 line
> of weenie panels. And now the 1664 is being used ( I think) to open up
> a new line of panels with some innovative/different features.
> So ...... I guess that could be Paradox's reasons also.
>
> As far as the "Spectra" line. You say they bought it out. I presume it
> was another manufacturer (?) If so, then I would say the purchase of
> the line was to get rid of a potential competitor, obtain some
> technology that they wanted, some real estate (ie production
> facilities), some production tools and machinery, =A0engineering staff,
> and a following, =A0etc, etc etc. The actual product and or it's method
> of production was probably not compatable with their own set up and it
> would have been too costly to retain it. The company may have been on
> it's last leg and ready to go out and Pardox got it for a song.
>
> Just a guess. Ademco was famous for doing just that, for years and
> years.

RHC:No they didn't buy or sell anything here. To also answer Marks
question, they simply destandardized the Spectra series of panels and
replaced them after only two years with the Magellan series of panels
Thats the beef here; the new panels are not in any way backward
compatible and no parts are available for the older Spectra series. I
have about 200 of the Spectra series in service with only the spare
boards and keypads I thought to keep in stock.

The only reference to buying and selling vis a vis Paradox, is that
ADT (there's that name again....:)) tried to buy them out some years
ago but they refused, preferring to remain independant. After that, at
least for awhile, ADT salesmen were telling clients that Paradox
panels were junk (a fact I've heard many times from customers....)

The issue here is that this company gets in and out of products line
faster than I change my socks and doesn't keep any of the old
equipment in stock to be ordered by dealers for replacement purposes.