Re: 2 wire vs 4 wire Smoke allarms

[robertlbass@xxxxxxxxxxx]

Frank Olson wrote:
> robertlbass@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
> > And NFPA specifically says you can't use any device on a fire alarm
> > unless it's listed for the purpose.
>
> We're not talking about a "fire alarm"...

Yes, we are indeed talking about a fire alarm system.  Perhaps if you
would purchase a copy of the code --  NFPA 72, to be specific -- you
would know what it says.  The code clearly defines a fire alarm system.

Also, almost all residential security systems sold in the USA carry the
UL listing for a residential fire alarm control panel.  There's a
reason that manufacturers spend tons of money getting that lkisting,
Frmank.  Without it the systems can't be used as a required fire alarm
system.

On a side note, I noticed you've made comments about me "pushing" ELK's
M1 Gold system before it had a UL listing.  In point of fact, the
listing was "pending" (it is now UL listed) and that information was
never hidden from clients.  While we're on the subject, you have also
rtecommended the ELK M1 Gold while the listing was pending so I'm not
sure what your problem is in that regard.

> We're talking about a home security system...

Once you connect a smoke detector that security system becomes a fire
alarm system and it is subject to the code requirements which apply to
a fire alarm system.  You can't get around that fact, no matter how
many times you try to ignore it.

> I posted the link to the BRK relay (which *can* be
> used to interconnect your 110VAC smoke alarms to your home alarm system)
> in another response in this thread.  Are you saying their "listing" is
> any different from Firex, or ESL, or Nortron?

Try reading the listings.  There are three of them -- not one -- and
none apply to use with a fire alarm control panel.  Again, it helps if
you actually purchase and read the code, or in this case the UL
listing.

> > Readers may wish to investigate
> > this further.  The process of "listing" a device for use with a control
> > panel involves testing it with the panel to make certain not only that
> > the device will function but that the system as a whole will conform to
> > code requirements.
>
>
> You're confusing the issue here by introducing "compatibility listing".

No, Frank.  It is you who are confused.  The listing must be "for the
purpose".  Code is quite clear on this.

> The issue of compatibility doesn't apply to four wire smoke detectors.

We're not talking about using 2 or 4 wire smokes.  We're talking about
improperly using a relay to connect 110VAC smokes to a low voltage
system when that relay is not listed for the purpose.

> You can use any of a number of different manufacturer's...
> --- snip irrelevent stuff about low voltage smoke detectors ---

> We're not talking a "fire alarm system".  You've still failed
> to provide the "chapter and verse" to back up your claim.

Indeed I have.  I'll repeat it here.

NFPA 72 National Fire Alarm Code=AE
72-16: DEFINITIONS

"Fire Alarm Control Unit (Panel). A system component that receives
inputs from automatic and manual fire alarm devices and might supply
power to detection devices and to a transponder(s) or off-premises
transmitter(s). The control unit might also provide transfer of power
to the notification appliances and transfer of condition to relays or
devices connected to the control unit. The fire alarm control unit can
be a local fire alarm control unit or a master control unit."

"Fire Alarm System. A system or portion of a combination system that
consists of components and circuits arranged to monitor and annunciate
the status of fire alarm or supervisory signal-initiating devices and
to initiate the appropriate response to those signals."

> This isn't a FIRE ALARM SYSTEM...

It is indeed a fire alarm system according to the above definitions.

> Nothing you can do short of having one installed to meet the specific UL/=
ULC requirements will make it so...

Installation practices don't make it a fire alarm system.  Connection
of smokedetectors makes it into a fire alarm system.  It might not be
listed or certificated, but that doesn't change the fact that the
national fire alarm code calls it a fire alarm system.

> UL certification isn't an issue in a home alarm system (and if it was, we=
're talkin' a "horse of a different color")...

Actually, you're talking horse excrement, but that is nothing new.  We
both know that you're wrong.  You just won't admit it.

>> Code makes no reference to who installs the system.  Any alarm system
>> which includes smoke detectors must comlply with the NFPA.
>
> Horse twaddle.  Where's it say that??...

See above.

> What AHJ would care what you connect to your home
> alarm system...

Any AHJ who knows code would care.

> What AHJ would care that you even have a home
> alarm system?...

Almost none until you start running wires.  Once you do that it is
subject to the electrical code (NEC, aka NFPA70) anywhere that code is
in use.  When you connect a smoke detector to the system, you now have
a fire alarm system.

BTW, you can jeep posting BS about fictitious dates during which you
claim I ran my alarm company all you like.  I've been in the alarm
industry for over 29 years.  Your silly lies don't change that.

Regards,
Robert L Bass
www.BassBurglarAlarms.com