Re: 2 wire vs 4 wire Smoke allarms

[Frank Olson <Use_the_email_links@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

robertlbass@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

> And NFPA specifically says you can't use any device on a fire alarm
> unless it's listed for the purpose.

We're not talking about a "fire alarm".  We're talking about a home
security system.  I posted the link to the BRK relay (which *can* be
used to interconnect your 110VAC smoke alarms to your home alarm system)
in another response in this thread.  Are you saying their "listing" is
any different from Firex, or ESL, or Nortron?


> Readers may wish to investigate
> this further.  The process of "listing" a device for use with a control
> panel involves testing it with the panel to make certain not only that
> the device will function but that the system as a whole will conform to
> code requirements.


You're confusing the issue here by introducing "compatibility listing".
  The issue of compatibility doesn't apply to four wire smoke detectors.
   You can use any of a number of different manufacturer's equipment in
this instance on any UL listed control.  Compatibility only comes into
play on two wire devices powered by the listed panel's initiating circuit.

"Compatiblity listing" also applies to two wire smoke alarms on specific
burg/security panels because (as with "Listed Fire Alarm Systems)
they're usually powered by a specific initiating circuit(s).  Four wire
smoke alarms aren't.  They derive their power from another source.  Most
are UL (ULC) Listed as stand alone or multiple station devices and you
can't mix manufacturers or even model numbers.  I haven't come across
one four wire smoke alarm that is specifically *listed* for
interconnection to a fire alarm system (in fact most fire alarm
manufacturers want you to use two wire smoke detectors for obvious
reasons).  Most  alarm control manufacturers will tell you how to
interconnect four wire smoke alarms and often provide the power
supervisory relay kits to accomplish this.  If you check out the
installation instructions with any of the Meridian (DSC) series of four
wire smoke alarms their "listing" doesn't mention interconnection (or
even testing/compatibility) to a specific "listed fire alarm panel".

>
> One of the requirements of a fire alarm system, be it residential or
> commercial, is that all initiaing devices (smoke detectors, heat
> detectors, etc.) be supervised against accidental disconnction.  This
> is simply not possible with integrated 110VAC smoke detectors.

We're not talking a "fire alarm system".  You've still failed to provide
the "chapter and verse" to back up your claim.


>
> Another requirement is that all of the parts of a fire alarm system
> have two power sources.

This isn't a FIRE ALARM SYSTEM.  Nothing you can do short of having one
installed to meet the specific UL/ULC requirements will make it so.  UL
certification isn't an issue in a home alarm system (and if it was,
we're talkin' a "horse of a different color").

<snip>

> Because of these weaknesses the FIREX 499 relay (one of the models
> cited by Mr Olson) is specifically NOT listed for use with an alarm
> control panel.  The manufacturer even went so far as to state in the
> installation instructions that the device may not be so used.

Nope.  They never say that.  They say it's "not recommended".  When you
talk to their tech-support staff they'll tell you why (and the reasons
cited have nothing to do with your "so called" code issues).


>
>
>>You *still* haven't provided specific wording to refute
>>my argument...
>
>
> I have before and I will repeat it here.  The following are directly
> quoted from the manual:
>
> "WARNING: The relay will not op-erate without continnuous AC power...."
> and
> "The relay module is not recommended for use with automatic dialers or
> security alarm panels."
>
> http://www.icca.invensys.com/manuals/firex/110-278F.pdf


Which is a "far cry" from wording that specifically *prohibits* its use
with "automatic dialers or security alarm panels".  Why do you think it
is?  I'll tell you why.  All of the Firex smokes "self test" when power
is first applied to them.  That means that if you have a power failure
in your home, the relay will trigger momentarily when power is
re-applied.  This will result in a false alarm to the CS and activation
of the system siren (if one is attached to your burg panel).  There is
*nothing* in *any* code, statute, or ordinance that prohibits a
homeowner from connecting his 110VAC smoke alarms to his security panel
however, with one exception.  If the system is a UL (or ULC in Canada)
Certificated *INSTALLATION* then all devices and wiring must comply with
the various specific standards that come into play.  I have only eleven
customers with ULC Certified Residential Systems.  They are a rarity but
some insurers will require it depending on their level of risk.


>>that doesn't involve "fire alarm systems".  A self installed
>>home security system is *not* a "fire alarm system".
>
>
> Code makes no reference to who installs the system.  Any alarm system
> which includes smoke detectors must comlply with the NFPA.

Horse twaddle.  Where's it say that??  And now I suppose your "bodge"
involving 3 relays to get a UL Listed fire communicator to test on the
second line, or to interrupt your primary receiver for five seconds (for
non-paying clients) is somehow "OK" while connecting a 110VAC smoke
alarm with a *listed* relay to a resi-burg panel isn't?  Can you explain
the difference, Mr. Bass??


>
>
>>A professionally installed burglar alarm is also *not* a fire
>>alarm system...
>
>
> If it includes fire detection it is.

Nope.  It's not.  What AHJ would care what you connect to your home
alarm system, Robert?  What AHJ would care that you even have a home
alarm system?  If you honestly believe that doing so is "against code",
then quote me the chapter and verse.  Better yet, call your local AHJ
and ask him if *he* cares one way or another.  He will make one subtle
distinction for you.  There *is* a difference between a listed fire
alarm system and a home security (or burglar) alarm.  I wonder how many
"Rat-Shack" alarms there are out there with the relays they used to sell
to tie in your AC smoke alarms?  Heck, if we were to believe your claims
regarding running your own alarm company in CT between 1979 and 1989,
you could have installed "hundreds" of alarm systems *without a permit*
or the proper licensing.