Re: Napco system questions

[Frank Olson <use_the_email_links@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Robert L Bass wrote:
> "Frank Olson" wrote:
>>
>> Yep...  and in those instances where a client needs that, I've sold
>> them on the "escort"...
>
> Unfortunately, that would be useless to these clients.  They can't
> operate electronic equipment, including phones during Shabos or certain
> holy days.

That's a great pity.  For a "faith" to restrict an individual to this
extent is (at least for me) the point at which I would ask...  WHY?  I
wouldn't make a very good Orthodox Jew.  :-)


>
>> Just dial the panel on any cell phone and you can turn on lights,
>> bypass zones, arm the interior...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Napco has advanced scheduling options that DSC doesn't even touch.  I
>>> have clients who need to make certain that a house sitter or maid
>>> doesn't forget to arm the system when they leave.  Napco allows me to
>>> auto-arm after a certain time of day *if* there hasn't been any
>>> motion for xx hours.  That's not a "standard" feature but it can be
>>> done through a few programming tricks.
>>
>> Then why mention it???  "Out of the box" features are the topic of
>> this discussion...
>
> When did we definew the topic so narrowly?  In any case, this is "out of
> the box"  No special hardware is needed -- just knowledge of ways to use
> the stuff.

That's well and good.  But knowledge is only one aspect.  Application is
the other.  I'd prefer to leave Orthodox Jewish people to members of
their own community (that actually UNDERSTAND their concerns).  I don't
need to pursue them as clients.  I have much bigger fish to fry.


>
>> I could more than likely auto arm a DSC system following those same
>> parameters (and with appropriate "option" modules), but why bother?
>
> I doubt you could do it with DSC modules but in answer to the "why
> bother" question, it was done because that is what the clients needed.

I don't need that kind of "client".


>
>> If a client is so concerned about whether-or-not the maid remembers to
>> arm the system when she leaves, why not provide them with an Escort
>> module which would allow them to call the system and perform all the
>> necessary functions.
>
> Although Napco's Wizard IIe will also perform remote control the
> functions of the Escort, there's a good reason to automate it.  Most
> clients don't want to have to access their systems remotely every time
> the maid leaves "just to be sure".  They want to have their protection
> with the least amount of hassle. Since Napco provides easy ways to do
> these things and so much more than cheap-o competitors, I prefer their
> stuff.

Good!!!  More power to you!!


>
>> In this instance, I don't think it would be in the clients best
>> interests to trust the system to "arm" itself anyway.  Would you??
>
> The system can be made more reliable than the maid's or even the
> client's own memory.  We had commercial accounts that paid us extra for
> "supervised" opening and closing protection.  For the benefit of others
> who may not know, that means not just sending reports but responding if
> a system isn't armed by the client's designated time each night.  By
> programming the systems to auto-arm we could be certain the system would
> be armed.  The backup, of course, was that our CS software would notify
> our operator if for any reason the system did not arm.  This meant far
> fewer late night calls to rouse a sleepy client to go down to arm his
> store or office system.  We could also remotely arm using Napco's
> software but auto-arming saved the client money and enhanced the value
> of services we provided.

Auto arming is a standard feature in most alarm systems (even the
"cheapo" DSC stuff).  And what you were providing here is nothing less
than what others in the industry do as well.


>
>>> Remember when I told you about the Orthodox Jewish homes I protected
>>> in CT? They needed a system that would not cause motion detector LEDs
>>> or relays to trip during holiday periods and weekly Shabos hours.
>>> With Napco I can disarm the system, power down the motion and glass
>>> break detectors, re-arm the system without the interior detection
>>> and, in the morning, bypass the "Shabos door" for a specific time
>>> slot so the family can leave for the synagogue.  At the end of Shabos
>>> (sunset), I can disarm, power up tthe detectors and, if needed re-arm
>>> the system.  Try doing any of that with a DSC system.
>>
>> Is that a challenge??  :-)
>
> Perhaps.  :^)
>
>> Napco can't do all those things "out of the box".
>
> Sure it can.  You just need to program the system properly.  Systems
> which controlled power used a standard Napco module, the RB3008.

You've already gone "beyond the box".


> In
> many Orthodox homes the clients chose not to even use motion or glass
> break detectors.  For those apps not even the RB3008 was needed.
> However, DSC couldn't do this with or without any DSC modules.

You're talking about disarming and re-arming a system that only employed
contact type devices (no motion or glass break detectors).  I'm not sure
how you imagine an "out of the box" DSC system couldn't do this.


>
>> You'll need to program a lot of relays.  DSC's 1864 has four
>> programmable outputs "on board".
>
> Try programming those relays to fire every Friday at 4:45 pm and release
> every Saturday at 6:30 pm or some such time, if and only if the system
> is disarmed. Try getting DSC to disarm, power down motions, re-arm while
> auto-bypassing those motion detectors and then "undo" the same sequence
> at the end of a 2- or 3-day holiday.  It just can't be done using DSC
> hardware.

It can't be done with Napco's panels "out of the box either".  You'll
need additonal modules and relays.


>
>> If you add the supervised power supply (something I think you'll need
>> with the size of the systems you're talking about), you'll get another
>> four on top of that.
>
> Napco has enough power to do it without adding the power supply.

I couldn't comment because I haven't seen a calculation for one of these
Shabos systems.


> However, in cases where it is needed, they make a very powerful add-on
> unit.

As does DSC.


>
>> The 1864 has event timers as well.
>
> Some of our clients asked us to program our systems to do specific
> things on the first Friday of a given month.  Others needed things done
> on the *last* Wednesday, etc.  Try programming that with DSC.

DBD (difficult but doable).  Again...  It's not something I would want
to get into in the first place.  The kind of clients that need this
level of "hand holding" I'd refer to Bob C.


>
>> I don't think it would be all that difficult for me to set up a DSC
>> system with the same parameters as your Napco stuff.
>
> OK, consider this a challenge then.  You can do it "virtually" (no
> hardware purchase required).  Just tell me which DSC modules you would
> use and how you would program the DSC system to do what I've described.
> Oh, by the way, we also had to perform a little extra service several
> times a year.  Because sunset changes a little every day, we had to make
> the schedules flexible. Several times a year we would change the start
> times of each sequence.  At the beginning of each year we would enter
> that year's Yom Tov dates.  The Jewish calendar is different from Ours
> so the dates of important holidays change each year, just like Easter
> (Passover) does for Christians.

Changing holiday dates is something you can download with most panels
(including DSC's).  As for providing an equipment list...  I'd need you
to post the client's exact requirements first.  I've forgotten most of
what you had posted here a couple of years ago.  Also...  If you find
that I can program a DSC system to operate EXACTLY the way your most
finicky client required, then we're going to have to set a "reward".
Mine will include a $100.00 donation to the United Way.  Yours...???


>
>> Yes... but Napco's significantly more expensive (and harder to keypad
>> program).
>
> Napco's low end panels, which are equivalent to DSC's mid-range stuff,
> compete well price-wise.  As I mentioned earlier, this whole keypad
> programming thing is a non-issue for me since I teach DIYers to use the
> software.  I've rarely run across anyone who couldn't use Napco's
> software with a few minutes of phone support.

DSC doesn't have "mid range stuff".  It's all "cheap".  :-)


>
>> Ditto with DSC.  Up to eight partitions.
>
> Same with Napco, except setting up the partitioning is a snap.

So is DSC...


>
>>>> For the money (cheap), they had all the stuff the "big boys" offered
>>>> (and sometimes more)...
>>>
>>> Compared to Honeywell, true.  But DSC doesn't beat Napco for the
>>> price or the features.
>>
>> I beg to differ.  Napco is significantly more expensive here (in Canada).
>
> No need to beg.  I have no idea what dealers pay for Napco in Canada.  I
> know what I sell it for and we get a few Canadian orders every so
> often.  I try to discourage it though, as it's a PITA dealing with UPS'
> cross-border rip-of... er, policies.

These days with the exchange rate being what it is, it's cheaper to buy DSC.


>
>> And I haven't needed extra options...  For those clients that do, I'd
>> prefer Ademco's products over Napco's.
>
> I suspect that's mainly because you have more experience with Honeywell
> (nee: Ademco) than with Napco.  As I said to Jim, a lot of "preference"
> is what we've become accustomed to using.  I realize that applies to me
> as well.
>

It shows!!  :-)