Re: Looking to purchase alarm system - suggestions?

["Norm Mugford" <1alarm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

You guys crack me up........
BTW  Thanks for the honorable mention.
:^))
 It was honorable ....right?

Norm Mugford





"Frank Olson" <feolson@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:L4RAe.1942589$Xk.1165862@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "no wires showing" <alarminstall@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:1121142672.436956.68260@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> >
> > Frankie you've been slamming nationals for years. Denial isn't a river
> > in Egypt.
>
> You're confusing me with someone else.  I've been a big supporter of the
> local ADT branch for years.
>
>
>
> >>I believe I said that (only in not so many words).<
> >
> > Next time use more words then. Dumb fckin Canadians always confusing
> > people.
>
> It's "Dumb fckin Amuricans" that can't read no-how...  Don't spell things
> right...  and still believe theres justification in invading a sovereign
> nation...
>
>
>
> >
> > Properly training the end user will reduce false alarms.
>
> Heh...  in your dreams...
>
> > Quality
> > equipment and fire rated wiring will also help.
>
> "Check" (on the quality equipment).  How will "fire rated wiring" help??
>
> > While some nationals
> > are absolute shitbags there are some who demand much higher standards
> > than any local I've ever seen.
>
> You've obviously never heard of a procedures manual...
>
>
> > If it came down to a choice between Joe Blow and Protect America I
> > would go with Joe Blow but if you're comparing Joe Blow to say Westec
> > then Westec is where my money is at.
>
> Really??  You were just slamming "Joe Blow".  There used to be a "Westec"
in
> Edmonton, but they sold out to the Borg.
>
>
> >
> >
> >> "Well my friend has a Joe Blow alarm system, and they never had
> >> trouble"
> >
> >
> >
> >>Most people would interpret a statement like that to mean:
> >
> > - They're always "there" when you need them,
> > - Their equipment is top notch,
> > - They've never had a break-in (or the authorities responded to an
> > attempt
> > at one)<
> >
> > Frankie customers don't have a real clue as to the quality of their
> > service, and customers hate admitting they made a bad choice.
>
> Aux contraire, mon ami...  Customers know ze qualitez of their ser-rveese
> ver-r-ry well... (at least ours do).
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >> Do we know if Joe Blow's system is functioning properly?
> >
> >
> >
> >>Do we know "the nationals" is??<
> >
> > Not with all of them. I've seen jumped zones on ADT panels just as many
> > times as I've seen jumped zones on the local company's panels.
>
> But you're "defending" a "national installation" over Joe Blows.  Make up
> your freekin' mind, ya damn Yank.  "We done found no weapons of mass
> destruction, but we done proved our weapons of mass destruction shure do
> work!"
>
>
> >
> >
> >> Does Joe Blow
> >> really tell his client's to test their system weekly?
> >
> >
> >>Checked your keypads lately??  It says "test system weekly" on most of
> >>them.<
> >
> > Know of many customers who actually do it?
>
> That's a personal choice.  Some can't be bothered... others take their
> security far more seriously.
>
> > How many customers know to
> > look in the panel for jumped zones?
>
> Ummmm....  The ones that take their security far more seriously??
>
>
> > Come on down here and see what the "locals" offer. Windows & doors all
> > on the same zone because they're too cheap to buy an expander.
>
> At least they're protected.  It may be a bit of an inconvenience trying to
> find the open window when you're in a hurry to leave, but having each
device
> annunciate individually on your keypad is not a requirement.
>
>
> >
> >
> >> Does Joe Blow
> >> jump zones rather than repairing faulty devices?
> >
> >
> >>Do the "nationals"??  Crummy installers and ditzy service techs are also
> > employed by "nationals", you know.  I've met my fair share, thank you.
> > <
> >
> > I've met them from all walks of life, but with a national there is
> > backup.
>
> Ummmm...  would that be from the branch office??  Could it be that the
> branch office may consist of one or two service techs (like Joe Blow's
> Company)??
>
> > Nationals tend to have more installers in their local offices
> > than Joe Blow.
>
> Heh...  right...
>
> > If Joe Blow is a 1 man show like your pal in Sarasota
> > then what recourse does the end user have?
>
> There ya go again...  comparing Bass Home with a national (or any alarm
> company).  He doesn't do installs.  He doesn't do service (He does remove
> Brinks panels though).  Sheesh!!!
>
>
> >
> >
> >> It only takes one
> >> incident to destroy a national's reputation but Joe Blow skates.
> >
> >
> >>Wrong.  Both the "national" and "Joe Blow" (using your example of "we've
> > never had any trouble") would stand behind the equipment they sell and
> > "make
> > it right" with the customer on any "one incident".<
> >
> > I've seen more locals than nationals walk away from trouble systems,
> > leaving the customer high & dry.
>
> I haven't seen a lot of examples of that.  Vancouver must be "different".
>
> > Those "low down/free systems" have done more to bolster our industry
> > than any other form of marketing.
> > Crunch the numbers and see the amount of systems installed since the
> > inception of these low down systems.
>
> Which was the point of my point...  Dummy!!!
>
>
> >
> >
> >> Look at Bass.
> >
> >
> >>You comparing Bass Home with a "national" now??  He's a parts pusher who
> > doesn't provide service, or installation and still claims the CS he's
> > using
> > is "UL Listed".<
> >
> > No ya numbnut I was comparing Bass with a local dealer. How many of his
> > victims even know they were duped by him? I saw the clowns installs,
> > and he made the crappiest installer look like a pro.
>
> No matter how ya slice it, Bass isn't a "Dealer" of any kind (except when
> he's playin' Poker).
>
>
> >
> >
> >> Think of the people he has
> >> suckered over the years.
> >
> >
> >>Twelve at last count at the BBB (and rising).<
> >
> > Not his online racket. I'm talking about his CT installs.
>
> Don't know anything about how he installed.  And I don't accept third
party
> comments about another person.  I've seen Bass in action in this group and
> wouldn't give the guy the time of day let alone allow him in my house to
> install a system.  That opinion is based entirely on his Newsgroup persona
> and nothing else.
>
>
> >
> >
> >> No problems with some of his installs because
> >> he jumped zones.
> >
> >
> >>I'll take your word for it.  I've never seen one of his installs and
> > probably never will.<
> >
> > You'd die laughing if you did.
>
> I'm already laughing...
>
>
> >
> >
> >> You don't think Bass was ever referred to someone
> >> because the existing sucker never had a problem?
> >
> >
> >>I'm sure he was.  I understand he was "big" with Jewish Community.<
> >
> > Like a bacon sandwich in Temple Beth El.
>
> Heh!!
>
>
> >
> >
> >> Bass isn't all by
> >> himself in the shoddy business society.
> >
> >
> >>Like I said, I can't comment on Bass providing "shoddy service".  I've
> >>never
> > seen one of his installs.  I *have* seen the competitions though.<
> >
> > I'm not sure how many installs you have seen but from my experience the
> > local dealers here need some sort of policing.
> > Guys like Jack Stevens are a dying breed (at their age they're on
> > borrowed time too). Locals try to compete with nationals and most I've
> > seen can't do it without taking shortcuts.
>
> None of the nationals I deal with here and very few of the locals take
> "shortcuts".  Most customers here are pretty savvy when it comes to alarm
> systems.
>
>
> >
> >
> >> The difference is Bass was
> >> busted time and time again in this forum, but I'd bet money to this day
> >> there are people who still think their system from the local guy (bass)
> >> still works fine. Wait until they find out that heat detector isn't
> >> connected.
> >
> >
> >>"Busting his balls" in the forum isn't the same as getting nailed for
> > "shoddy workmanship" or "unlicensed activity" in your local area.
> > There's
> > been a couple of instances where both has happened to one of the "big
> > three"
> > here in Vancouver (ISTR the CEO of Tyco got "nailed" recently). <
> >
> > You're the big Google guru so post the old news articles on ADT
> > installers arrested for breaking into homes, but when you do it make
> > sure to add installers for local companies.
> > That's what's really scary.
>
> Funny how the "nationals" always make the news with stuff like that...
>
>
> >
> >
> >> See if the Central station is U.L. Listed, and I.Q. Certified. Make
> >> sure the installing company is also licensed & I.Q Certified.
> >> As Jack stated 90 some odd percent of all signals are false alarms. The
> >> I.Q. Certification Board's #1 goal is the reduction of false alarms.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Right.  So what method does "the Board" recommend you use to reduce
false
> > alarms caused by a klutzy end-user??  Shoot the f**ker??  Cut off his
> > hands??<
> >
> > Training training training training and more training.
>
> Uh-huh...  sure...
>
>
> >
> >
> >> Joe Blow Alarm Company can always offer a better deal than the next guy
> >> because Joe Blow Alarm Company doesn't use quality equipment,
> >
> >
> >>Excuse me??  We onliest use the bestust relays and high quality chrome
> > plated pull chains.<
> >
> > Loxxons for everyone!
>
> I like mine with a bagel.
>
>
> >
> >
> >> fire-rated wire,
> >
> >
> >>Is that anything like asbestos covered steel supports that had a "two
> >>hour"
> > fire rating??<
> >
> > It's like a left-handed toothbrush.
>
> Ahhh...  I get the "pitcher".
>
>
> >
> >
> >> and doesn't answer to anyone.
> >
> >
> >>I always answer my phone...  when I feel like it.<
> >
> > Who calls you anyway? I wouldn't. You spell like a retard so you must
> > be dribbling on the phone too :-)
>
> Pardon me while I wipe the drool from my keyboard.
>
>
> >
> >
> >> Joe Blow can use that
> >> $2.00 per month monitoring station that ass nuggets like Bass use.
> >
> >
> >>We use third party monitoring as well...  They're ULC listed, and their
> > staff are all SIA trained.<
> >
> >
> > Would you say that's the exception and not the rule?
>
> Nope.  The industry here is pretty tightly regulated.
>
>
> >
> >
> >> Joe
> >> Blow won't offer a client a system relocation.
> >
> >
> >>I would in a heartbeat!!  "You wanna move this equipment to where, Mr.
> > Customer??  That'll cost ya about $300.00 plus airfare, hotel, and
> > entertainment!" <
> >
> > So in other words NO?
>
> Did I say that??
>
>
> >
> >
> >> All Joe Blow can do is
> >> tell you why someone else is no good.
> >
> >
> >>Well thank you, Joe...  errmmmm...  I mean Tom...<
> >
> >
> > Too much eggnog?
>
> Puh-leeze!!!  It's "Courvoisier".  My tastes are much more discriminating.
>
>
> >
> >> Fact is, if Joe Blow Alarm
> >> Company was that damn good then Joe Blow Alarm Company would be bigger
> >> than they are, and have awards to show just how much better they are.
> >
> >
> >>Not if the owner (in this case Joe Blow) decided he wanted to
concentrate
> >>on
> > providing good service and value for money (like Bob Campbell).  In
> > Bob's
> > case, the business "grows" by referral and he can "pick and choose" who
> > he
> > wants to do business with.  I'm sure that his son is going to have to
> > make a
> > decision sooner or later to hire addtional support staff and service
> > techs.
> > Besides, when "Joe Blow Alarm Company" gets to a certain size, they
> > usually
> > wind up selling out to a "national" for a "sweet-heart deal"...  :-)) <
> >
> > Have you seen any of his installs? He might be the greatest installer
> > alive but have you seen any of his installs?
> > It's just hearsay until you actually do.
>
> Nope.  I haven't.  But I'm a pretty good judge of character.  I figure
Jim,
> Mark, Jim R., RHC, Jack, Jackcsg, Bob L., Bob W., Norm and a few others
here
> are decent folks.  It's actually easier to list the guy "on the dark side"
> than all the good people here...  :-))
>
>
> >
> >> Yap yap yap until the cows come home but the proof is in the pudding.
> >
> >
> >
> >>When the cows come home you have to milk them first before you can make
> > pudding.<
> >
> > Milk a bull
>
> A "bull" ain't a cow, but a cow can be a "bull", right??  :-))
>
>
> >
> >
> >> Stop advising people to eliminate choices with blanket statements.
> >
> >
> >
> >>I don't think I did...<
> >
> > You have done it before. You post so damn much you can't keep track of
> > your own blabbering.
>
> Where??  I done Googled everythin', boss and can't find it nowhere.
>
>
> >
> >
> >> Look at the post from RHC in this thread and see if you can spot a
> >> problem with "local service".
> >
> >
> >>Yep.  That problem's covered though (in RHC's case).  When Bass goes on
> > vacation the whole store goes to s**t. <
> >
> > And how many Bassholes are there as opposed to RHCs?
>
> Heh...  I ain't gonna touch that!!  I promised I wouldn't flame Robert...
>
>
> >
> >
> >> RHC went on vacation (which is great.... more power to him) but who was
> >> left minding the shop?
> >
> >
> >>Ummmm...  His son??<
> >
> > How qualified is his son? (mind you RHC is the example of a small
> > dealer Frankie. We're not discussing his son per say but companies
> > constructed the same way). What if his son isn't qualified? When will a
> > Father ever admit his son is incapable? RHC isn't the only father/son
> > company out there.
>
> Hey!!!  Lay off RHC.  He's Canadian, dammit!!!
>
>
> >
> >
> >> Someone who in his own words doesn't fully understand the industry.
> >
> >
> >>Heh...  He's also stated that he does most of the installs.  I figure he
> > probably has good trouble-shooting skills as well.  Besides, there's
> > always
> > the "cell phone"...<
> >
> >
> > He's "stated" but where is the proof? It's still hearsay Frankie.
>
> Nope.  When someone states something about their own business or
themselves
> , that's not hearsay...  You should look up the meaning of the word.
>
>
> >
> >
> >> What happened to any potential service issues during that time?  Who
> >> took care of the customers? Was it someone who was fully aware of the
> >> industry, and someone who knows how to handle any service issue?
> >> How long should a customer wait until their system is functioning at
> >> 100%.
> >
> >
> >>About two hours (I figure)...<
> >
> > You GUESS
>
> What do you think "I figure" means??
>
>
> >
> >
> >> This isn't a pot shot at anyone Frank, but this isn't the Goodwill
> >> Society either so if offense is taken so be it.
> >
> >
> >>No offense taken...  and none given...<
> >
> > I must be losing my touch :-)
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >
> >
> >> It's sad how "advise" (Canadian version) is spewed out about who is
> >> good and who isn't when the bottom line is you don't really have a
> >> fucking clue if you're right or not.
> >
> >
> >>Awww...  give me a break...  Nothing I've said hasn't been said already.
> > Check out:<
> >
> > You just did it in your reply.
> >
>
> <sigh>
>
> >
> >> Having a few beers with someone,
> >> or trading emails doesn't make them a reputable dealer, nor does
> >> someone listed on your website have a reputation that you know for fact
> >> is good. All you do is spout off hearsay, and in this business that's
> >> just irresponsible.
> >
> >
> >>Heh...  I've never listed anyone on my website by "reputation".  And
I've
> > never "spouted off" hearsay. <
> >
> > You just did. Now what is the criteria to be listed on your website?
>
> You really want to know??  Or are you just "fishing"??
>
>
> > Tell me what you do to protect end users from shoddy installers?
>
> I onliest hire the bestust beer drinkers and use the bestust qualities
> relays and pull chains.
>
>
> > Do you investigate these companies, and if so, how?
>
> Nope.  Not my place.  If they're licensed (in their State/Province) then
> they get listed.  The BBB does a pretty good job of keeping tabs on how
they
> perform.  The latest iteration of my "Dealers" page contains a link to the
> local BBB and State Alarm Association.
>
>
> >
> >
> >> I've been a local dealer, and I've been a dealer for nationals. Were my
> >> installers any better when we didn't have the national shingle?
> >
> >
> >>Nope.  I think I've already alluded to that.<
> >
> > OK
> >
> >
> >> (BTW - Fuck you Bass in advance for your future comments. I could out
> >> install your slob ass with a Yankee drill, a dull bit, and both arms in
> >> a sling).
> >
> >
> >
> >>You forgot to mention "both legs in a cast".<
> >
> > And under sedation
>
> Prozac???
>
>
> >
> >
> >> I've cracked jokes about my installation abilities over the years but I
> >> can guarantee you you'd be hard pressed to find someone you'd rather
> >> have install or service your system than me or any of my techs. Mark
> >> Leuck and I crack jokes about the millions of phone calls I've made to
> >> him with questions but what we never talk about is the reason being
> >> that I service DSC, Moose, AT&T, ITI, Ademco, Napco, DS, Radionics,
> >> MyAlarm, and on and on and on. All of my training has been Baptism by
> >> Fire. I don't sit back and read a manual so I can post answers in a
> >> newsgroup. I get a call today for a panel I never worked with and by
> >> tomorrow I have it repaired. And as Mark can also attest to I am not
> >> alone in this area.
> >
> >
> >
> >>I seriously doubt you'd be able to repair/program a panel without first
> > reading it's manual.  I don't think Mark would tolerate many phone
> > calls
> > from Dealers that require answering a question that's already covered
> > *in
> > the freakin' manual*.  Not reading the manual is pure laziness.
> > Posting
> > stupid questions in this Newsgroup when you've got the manual in front
> > of
> > you is equally lazy. <
> >
> >
> > Frankie in most situations when it's your first time with the panel
> > there is no time to read the manual so you wire up the different panels
> > properly and have someone walk you through programming, and the next
> > time you run into that system you should have it down in spades.
> > Mind you I'm talking about panels that aren't amongst the most popular
> > choices, and panels that are no longer in production.
> > Mark dammit explain it in English to the Canuck.
>
> It doesn't take long for me to read a manual.  Understanding the
principles
> of programming a panel doesn't take long either.  I'd never even try to
> program a Radionics panel (or one of Jackcsg's "Dippy" ones)...  And I
don't
> waste time on the phone to someone in Texas to try and get him to talk me
> through programming when I know some klutzy installer that leaves
> "no-wires-showing" needs him more.  :-))
>
>
> >
> >
> >> Do you think all locals immediately become inept once a national hands
> >> them a shingle?
> >
> >
> >
> >>Yep!!!  :-)) <
> >
> > You really do want a fckin wedgie don't you?
>
> I prefer "Noogies"...
>
>
> >
> >
> >> Rojas services for nationals and was also a dealer. Is he on the
> >> "dark-side" of installers now? Bob Skinner was an ADT dealer. How
> >> shoddy is his work? How about Bossman? He's a Monitronics dealer. Does
> >> his work suck? Are his clients screwed?
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hey!!!  We do work for "nationals" too!!!  I guess that means Robert's
> >>been
> > right all along...  I know nothing about alarms...  :-))<
> >
> > Bass thinks Augustus Pope was the ruler of Vatican City.
>
> Wasn't he??
>
>
> >
> >
> >> How solid is your advice now Frank? How solid is your "atta boy Frank"
> >> now RHC?
> >
> >
> >
> >>'Bout as "solid" as this post (which looks more like an example from
RLB's
> > poison keyboard more and more)...<
> >
> > It was the burgers.
>
> :-))
>
>
> >
> >
> >> Stop bullshitting people already with your nickel and dime scare
> >> tactics about nationals, and start worrying about your own credibility
> >> because with the advice you offer you're both in desperate need of
> >> some.
> >
> >
> > <sigh>
> >
> >
> >> Don't like what I am saying? Remind me tomorrow to pretend I give a
> >> shit.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Write me when you start making sense and have actually *read* what I
> >>posted,
> > OK??  Till then...  "Below me"...  :-)) <
> >
> > "Below me"? Going UFO hunting now too?
>
> Nope.  Spooks.  I done rewired my volt-meter to detect 'em.
>
>