Re: Looking to purchase alarm system - suggestions?

["Frank Olson" <feolson@xxxxxxxxxx>]

"no wires showing" <alarminstall@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1121142672.436956.68260@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>
> Frankie you've been slamming nationals for years. Denial isn't a river
> in Egypt.

You're confusing me with someone else.  I've been a big supporter of the
local ADT branch for years.



>>I believe I said that (only in not so many words).<
>
> Next time use more words then. Dumb fckin Canadians always confusing
> people.

It's "Dumb fckin Amuricans" that can't read no-how...  Don't spell things
right...  and still believe theres justification in invading a sovereign
nation...



>
> Properly training the end user will reduce false alarms.

Heh...  in your dreams...

> Quality
> equipment and fire rated wiring will also help.

"Check" (on the quality equipment).  How will "fire rated wiring" help??

> While some nationals
> are absolute shitbags there are some who demand much higher standards
> than any local I've ever seen.

You've obviously never heard of a procedures manual...


> If it came down to a choice between Joe Blow and Protect America I
> would go with Joe Blow but if you're comparing Joe Blow to say Westec
> then Westec is where my money is at.

Really??  You were just slamming "Joe Blow".  There used to be a "Westec" in
Edmonton, but they sold out to the Borg.


>
>
>> "Well my friend has a Joe Blow alarm system, and they never had
>> trouble"
>
>
>
>>Most people would interpret a statement like that to mean:
>
> - They're always "there" when you need them,
> - Their equipment is top notch,
> - They've never had a break-in (or the authorities responded to an
> attempt
> at one)<
>
> Frankie customers don't have a real clue as to the quality of their
> service, and customers hate admitting they made a bad choice.

Aux contraire, mon ami...  Customers know ze qualitez of their ser-rveese
ver-r-ry well... (at least ours do).


>
>
>
>> Do we know if Joe Blow's system is functioning properly?
>
>
>
>>Do we know "the nationals" is??<
>
> Not with all of them. I've seen jumped zones on ADT panels just as many
> times as I've seen jumped zones on the local company's panels.

But you're "defending" a "national installation" over Joe Blows.  Make up
your freekin' mind, ya damn Yank.  "We done found no weapons of mass
destruction, but we done proved our weapons of mass destruction shure do
work!"


>
>
>> Does Joe Blow
>> really tell his client's to test their system weekly?
>
>
>>Checked your keypads lately??  It says "test system weekly" on most of
>>them.<
>
> Know of many customers who actually do it?

That's a personal choice.  Some can't be bothered... others take their
security far more seriously.

> How many customers know to
> look in the panel for jumped zones?

Ummmm....  The ones that take their security far more seriously??


> Come on down here and see what the "locals" offer. Windows & doors all
> on the same zone because they're too cheap to buy an expander.

At least they're protected.  It may be a bit of an inconvenience trying to
find the open window when you're in a hurry to leave, but having each device
annunciate individually on your keypad is not a requirement.


>
>
>> Does Joe Blow
>> jump zones rather than repairing faulty devices?
>
>
>>Do the "nationals"??  Crummy installers and ditzy service techs are also
> employed by "nationals", you know.  I've met my fair share, thank you.
> <
>
> I've met them from all walks of life, but with a national there is
> backup.

Ummmm...  would that be from the branch office??  Could it be that the
branch office may consist of one or two service techs (like Joe Blow's
Company)??

> Nationals tend to have more installers in their local offices
> than Joe Blow.

Heh...  right...

> If Joe Blow is a 1 man show like your pal in Sarasota
> then what recourse does the end user have?

There ya go again...  comparing Bass Home with a national (or any alarm
company).  He doesn't do installs.  He doesn't do service (He does remove
Brinks panels though).  Sheesh!!!


>
>
>> It only takes one
>> incident to destroy a national's reputation but Joe Blow skates.
>
>
>>Wrong.  Both the "national" and "Joe Blow" (using your example of "we've
> never had any trouble") would stand behind the equipment they sell and
> "make
> it right" with the customer on any "one incident".<
>
> I've seen more locals than nationals walk away from trouble systems,
> leaving the customer high & dry.

I haven't seen a lot of examples of that.  Vancouver must be "different".

> Those "low down/free systems" have done more to bolster our industry
> than any other form of marketing.
> Crunch the numbers and see the amount of systems installed since the
> inception of these low down systems.

Which was the point of my point...  Dummy!!!


>
>
>> Look at Bass.
>
>
>>You comparing Bass Home with a "national" now??  He's a parts pusher who
> doesn't provide service, or installation and still claims the CS he's
> using
> is "UL Listed".<
>
> No ya numbnut I was comparing Bass with a local dealer. How many of his
> victims even know they were duped by him? I saw the clowns installs,
> and he made the crappiest installer look like a pro.

No matter how ya slice it, Bass isn't a "Dealer" of any kind (except when
he's playin' Poker).


>
>
>> Think of the people he has
>> suckered over the years.
>
>
>>Twelve at last count at the BBB (and rising).<
>
> Not his online racket. I'm talking about his CT installs.

Don't know anything about how he installed.  And I don't accept third party
comments about another person.  I've seen Bass in action in this group and
wouldn't give the guy the time of day let alone allow him in my house to
install a system.  That opinion is based entirely on his Newsgroup persona
and nothing else.


>
>
>> No problems with some of his installs because
>> he jumped zones.
>
>
>>I'll take your word for it.  I've never seen one of his installs and
> probably never will.<
>
> You'd die laughing if you did.

I'm already laughing...


>
>
>> You don't think Bass was ever referred to someone
>> because the existing sucker never had a problem?
>
>
>>I'm sure he was.  I understand he was "big" with Jewish Community.<
>
> Like a bacon sandwich in Temple Beth El.

Heh!!


>
>
>> Bass isn't all by
>> himself in the shoddy business society.
>
>
>>Like I said, I can't comment on Bass providing "shoddy service".  I've
>>never
> seen one of his installs.  I *have* seen the competitions though.<
>
> I'm not sure how many installs you have seen but from my experience the
> local dealers here need some sort of policing.
> Guys like Jack Stevens are a dying breed (at their age they're on
> borrowed time too). Locals try to compete with nationals and most I've
> seen can't do it without taking shortcuts.

None of the nationals I deal with here and very few of the locals take
"shortcuts".  Most customers here are pretty savvy when it comes to alarm
systems.


>
>
>> The difference is Bass was
>> busted time and time again in this forum, but I'd bet money to this day
>> there are people who still think their system from the local guy (bass)
>> still works fine. Wait until they find out that heat detector isn't
>> connected.
>
>
>>"Busting his balls" in the forum isn't the same as getting nailed for
> "shoddy workmanship" or "unlicensed activity" in your local area.
> There's
> been a couple of instances where both has happened to one of the "big
> three"
> here in Vancouver (ISTR the CEO of Tyco got "nailed" recently). <
>
> You're the big Google guru so post the old news articles on ADT
> installers arrested for breaking into homes, but when you do it make
> sure to add installers for local companies.
> That's what's really scary.

Funny how the "nationals" always make the news with stuff like that...


>
>
>> See if the Central station is U.L. Listed, and I.Q. Certified. Make
>> sure the installing company is also licensed & I.Q Certified.
>> As Jack stated 90 some odd percent of all signals are false alarms. The
>> I.Q. Certification Board's #1 goal is the reduction of false alarms.
>
>
>
>>Right.  So what method does "the Board" recommend you use to reduce false
> alarms caused by a klutzy end-user??  Shoot the f**ker??  Cut off his
> hands??<
>
> Training training training training and more training.

Uh-huh...  sure...


>
>
>> Joe Blow Alarm Company can always offer a better deal than the next guy
>> because Joe Blow Alarm Company doesn't use quality equipment,
>
>
>>Excuse me??  We onliest use the bestust relays and high quality chrome
> plated pull chains.<
>
> Loxxons for everyone!

I like mine with a bagel.


>
>
>> fire-rated wire,
>
>
>>Is that anything like asbestos covered steel supports that had a "two
>>hour"
> fire rating??<
>
> It's like a left-handed toothbrush.

Ahhh...  I get the "pitcher".


>
>
>> and doesn't answer to anyone.
>
>
>>I always answer my phone...  when I feel like it.<
>
> Who calls you anyway? I wouldn't. You spell like a retard so you must
> be dribbling on the phone too :-)

Pardon me while I wipe the drool from my keyboard.


>
>
>> Joe Blow can use that
>> $2.00 per month monitoring station that ass nuggets like Bass use.
>
>
>>We use third party monitoring as well...  They're ULC listed, and their
> staff are all SIA trained.<
>
>
> Would you say that's the exception and not the rule?

Nope.  The industry here is pretty tightly regulated.


>
>
>> Joe
>> Blow won't offer a client a system relocation.
>
>
>>I would in a heartbeat!!  "You wanna move this equipment to where, Mr.
> Customer??  That'll cost ya about $300.00 plus airfare, hotel, and
> entertainment!" <
>
> So in other words NO?

Did I say that??


>
>
>> All Joe Blow can do is
>> tell you why someone else is no good.
>
>
>>Well thank you, Joe...  errmmmm...  I mean Tom...<
>
>
> Too much eggnog?

Puh-leeze!!!  It's "Courvoisier".  My tastes are much more discriminating.


>
>> Fact is, if Joe Blow Alarm
>> Company was that damn good then Joe Blow Alarm Company would be bigger
>> than they are, and have awards to show just how much better they are.
>
>
>>Not if the owner (in this case Joe Blow) decided he wanted to concentrate
>>on
> providing good service and value for money (like Bob Campbell).  In
> Bob's
> case, the business "grows" by referral and he can "pick and choose" who
> he
> wants to do business with.  I'm sure that his son is going to have to
> make a
> decision sooner or later to hire addtional support staff and service
> techs.
> Besides, when "Joe Blow Alarm Company" gets to a certain size, they
> usually
> wind up selling out to a "national" for a "sweet-heart deal"...  :-)) <
>
> Have you seen any of his installs? He might be the greatest installer
> alive but have you seen any of his installs?
> It's just hearsay until you actually do.

Nope.  I haven't.  But I'm a pretty good judge of character.  I figure Jim,
Mark, Jim R., RHC, Jack, Jackcsg, Bob L., Bob W., Norm and a few others here
are decent folks.  It's actually easier to list the guy "on the dark side"
than all the good people here...  :-))


>
>> Yap yap yap until the cows come home but the proof is in the pudding.
>
>
>
>>When the cows come home you have to milk them first before you can make
> pudding.<
>
> Milk a bull

A "bull" ain't a cow, but a cow can be a "bull", right??  :-))


>
>
>> Stop advising people to eliminate choices with blanket statements.
>
>
>
>>I don't think I did...<
>
> You have done it before. You post so damn much you can't keep track of
> your own blabbering.

Where??  I done Googled everythin', boss and can't find it nowhere.


>
>
>> Look at the post from RHC in this thread and see if you can spot a
>> problem with "local service".
>
>
>>Yep.  That problem's covered though (in RHC's case).  When Bass goes on
> vacation the whole store goes to s**t. <
>
> And how many Bassholes are there as opposed to RHCs?

Heh...  I ain't gonna touch that!!  I promised I wouldn't flame Robert...


>
>
>> RHC went on vacation (which is great.... more power to him) but who was
>> left minding the shop?
>
>
>>Ummmm...  His son??<
>
> How qualified is his son? (mind you RHC is the example of a small
> dealer Frankie. We're not discussing his son per say but companies
> constructed the same way). What if his son isn't qualified? When will a
> Father ever admit his son is incapable? RHC isn't the only father/son
> company out there.

Hey!!!  Lay off RHC.  He's Canadian, dammit!!!


>
>
>> Someone who in his own words doesn't fully understand the industry.
>
>
>>Heh...  He's also stated that he does most of the installs.  I figure he
> probably has good trouble-shooting skills as well.  Besides, there's
> always
> the "cell phone"...<
>
>
> He's "stated" but where is the proof? It's still hearsay Frankie.

Nope.  When someone states something about their own business or themselves
, that's not hearsay...  You should look up the meaning of the word.


>
>
>> What happened to any potential service issues during that time?  Who
>> took care of the customers? Was it someone who was fully aware of the
>> industry, and someone who knows how to handle any service issue?
>> How long should a customer wait until their system is functioning at
>> 100%.
>
>
>>About two hours (I figure)...<
>
> You GUESS

What do you think "I figure" means??


>
>
>> This isn't a pot shot at anyone Frank, but this isn't the Goodwill
>> Society either so if offense is taken so be it.
>
>
>>No offense taken...  and none given...<
>
> I must be losing my touch :-)
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
>> It's sad how "advise" (Canadian version) is spewed out about who is
>> good and who isn't when the bottom line is you don't really have a
>> fucking clue if you're right or not.
>
>
>>Awww...  give me a break...  Nothing I've said hasn't been said already.
> Check out:<
>
> You just did it in your reply.
>

<sigh>

>
>> Having a few beers with someone,
>> or trading emails doesn't make them a reputable dealer, nor does
>> someone listed on your website have a reputation that you know for fact
>> is good. All you do is spout off hearsay, and in this business that's
>> just irresponsible.
>
>
>>Heh...  I've never listed anyone on my website by "reputation".  And I've
> never "spouted off" hearsay. <
>
> You just did. Now what is the criteria to be listed on your website?

You really want to know??  Or are you just "fishing"??


> Tell me what you do to protect end users from shoddy installers?

I onliest hire the bestust beer drinkers and use the bestust qualities
relays and pull chains.


> Do you investigate these companies, and if so, how?

Nope.  Not my place.  If they're licensed (in their State/Province) then
they get listed.  The BBB does a pretty good job of keeping tabs on how they
perform.  The latest iteration of my "Dealers" page contains a link to the
local BBB and State Alarm Association.


>
>
>> I've been a local dealer, and I've been a dealer for nationals. Were my
>> installers any better when we didn't have the national shingle?
>
>
>>Nope.  I think I've already alluded to that.<
>
> OK
>
>
>> (BTW - Fuck you Bass in advance for your future comments. I could out
>> install your slob ass with a Yankee drill, a dull bit, and both arms in
>> a sling).
>
>
>
>>You forgot to mention "both legs in a cast".<
>
> And under sedation

Prozac???


>
>
>> I've cracked jokes about my installation abilities over the years but I
>> can guarantee you you'd be hard pressed to find someone you'd rather
>> have install or service your system than me or any of my techs. Mark
>> Leuck and I crack jokes about the millions of phone calls I've made to
>> him with questions but what we never talk about is the reason being
>> that I service DSC, Moose, AT&T, ITI, Ademco, Napco, DS, Radionics,
>> MyAlarm, and on and on and on. All of my training has been Baptism by
>> Fire. I don't sit back and read a manual so I can post answers in a
>> newsgroup. I get a call today for a panel I never worked with and by
>> tomorrow I have it repaired. And as Mark can also attest to I am not
>> alone in this area.
>
>
>
>>I seriously doubt you'd be able to repair/program a panel without first
> reading it's manual.  I don't think Mark would tolerate many phone
> calls
> from Dealers that require answering a question that's already covered
> *in
> the freakin' manual*.  Not reading the manual is pure laziness.
> Posting
> stupid questions in this Newsgroup when you've got the manual in front
> of
> you is equally lazy. <
>
>
> Frankie in most situations when it's your first time with the panel
> there is no time to read the manual so you wire up the different panels
> properly and have someone walk you through programming, and the next
> time you run into that system you should have it down in spades.
> Mind you I'm talking about panels that aren't amongst the most popular
> choices, and panels that are no longer in production.
> Mark dammit explain it in English to the Canuck.

It doesn't take long for me to read a manual.  Understanding the principles
of programming a panel doesn't take long either.  I'd never even try to
program a Radionics panel (or one of Jackcsg's "Dippy" ones)...  And I don't
waste time on the phone to someone in Texas to try and get him to talk me
through programming when I know some klutzy installer that leaves
"no-wires-showing" needs him more.  :-))


>
>
>> Do you think all locals immediately become inept once a national hands
>> them a shingle?
>
>
>
>>Yep!!!  :-)) <
>
> You really do want a fckin wedgie don't you?

I prefer "Noogies"...


>
>
>> Rojas services for nationals and was also a dealer. Is he on the
>> "dark-side" of installers now? Bob Skinner was an ADT dealer. How
>> shoddy is his work? How about Bossman? He's a Monitronics dealer. Does
>> his work suck? Are his clients screwed?
>
>
>
>>Hey!!!  We do work for "nationals" too!!!  I guess that means Robert's
>>been
> right all along...  I know nothing about alarms...  :-))<
>
> Bass thinks Augustus Pope was the ruler of Vatican City.

Wasn't he??


>
>
>> How solid is your advice now Frank? How solid is your "atta boy Frank"
>> now RHC?
>
>
>
>>'Bout as "solid" as this post (which looks more like an example from RLB's
> poison keyboard more and more)...<
>
> It was the burgers.

:-))


>
>
>> Stop bullshitting people already with your nickel and dime scare
>> tactics about nationals, and start worrying about your own credibility
>> because with the advice you offer you're both in desperate need of
>> some.
>
>
> <sigh>
>
>
>> Don't like what I am saying? Remind me tomorrow to pretend I give a
>> shit.
>
>
>
>>Write me when you start making sense and have actually *read* what I
>>posted,
> OK??  Till then...  "Below me"...  :-)) <
>
> "Below me"? Going UFO hunting now too?

Nope.  Spooks.  I done rewired my volt-meter to detect 'em.