Re: Fire Side Chat -- Fire Alarm Code Issue

["Doug L" <vssdoug@xxxxxxx>]

IMO this is wide open to interpretation by the AHJ, since using auxilary
contacts on a 110VAC smoke or an auxiliary relay connected to the smokes to
trip a zone on a burg panel or to turn on the coffee machine  for that
matter doesn't appear to be specifically prohibited by the NFPA 72  codes,
nor IMHO does it require the coffee maker or the panel to be UL listed as a
Fire Alarm Control Panel, what is required is that the relay used be listed
for use with the 110VAC smoke detectors, what you connect to the isolated
dry contacts appears to be pretty much up to you (1999 NFPA72 8-2-5), .

This issue is a completely different thing than connecting system smokes to
a non-listed panel, that is specially addressed in the NFPA codes.

I called the NFPA on this one last time around and I was told that using
such a relay  is an auxiliary or supplemental function and as long as it
doesn't interfere with or degrade the operation of the 110VAC detectors and
the relay is listed for use with the 110vac smoke detector you could use the
relay output for anything you wanted, including the activation of a dialer
or other notification device, subject to the manufactures installation
instructions and the AHJ.  In the 1996 72 section 2-1.3.3 pretty much
covered supplemental functions, the 1999 72 has it in section 8-2.

The difficulty appears to be in finding a manufacturer that has a relay that
doesn't exclude its use as a means to trip a control panel. At first glance
from the limited information on their website the BRK RM4
http://www.brkelectronics.com/safety_products/relays.htm seems to indicate
you could use it to trip a control panel. Further information from BRK may
confirm or contradict that assumption.

Having said all that, the use of  inexpensive "builders" smoke detectors to
trip an alarm system is not a good idea, regardless if allowed or prohibited
by code

Doug L


Robert L. Bass <robertlbass@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:wdydnRVIwbOP8_HfRVn-vg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "Frank Olson" <feolson@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:BNZae.1130805$6l.572831@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > "Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > news:qMGdnbTSQ8plxvHfRVn-gQ@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Robert's been involved in this type of
> >>> debate for years.  It's no sense arguing
> >>> with him.  He'll never understand that
> >>> a residential burg panel is not a listed
> >>> FACP.
> >>
> >> You are absolutely wrong, Frank.  To use a residential burg panel with
> >> smoke detectors anywhere in the US where NFPA is observed the panel
MUST
> >> bears a UL listing for residential fire alarm at a minimum.  You can
not
> >> just connect up whatever you happen to find to a fire alarm system --
> >> residential or commercial.
> >
> > A burglar alarm panel will never be a listed fire alarm system.
>
> For a burglar alarm panel to be connected to smoke detectors in the US it
> must be listed for the purpose.  Connected to smokes, the listed panel
> becomes a fire alarm system and is subject to fire alarm code.
>
> > There are plenty of panels sold in the
> > US that aren't UL listed for fire...
>
> Those whuch are not listed for the purpose are not permitted to be
connected
> to smoke detectors.  Doing so is a code violation.
>
> > There is nothing in any code or standard
> > that prohibits a homeowner from connecting
> > his 110VAC smoke alarm to an auto dialler
> > or his security panel...
>
> You can restate that falsehood as many times as you like and you will
still
> be wrong.
>
> > You sell to DIY all the time.  I seriously
> > doubt a homeowner is going to install a
> > security system to the same standard as
> > even you would have (when you were in
> > the trade)...
>
> Ignoring your rude choice of words, whether a DIYer installs as good as or
> better than a technician is irrelavent to the discussion at hand.
>
> > Al Columbo is absolutely correct...
>
> Nope.  He's wrong and so are you.
>
> > ... but I seriously doubt any professional installer would sanction (let
> > alone actually
> > hook up) an unsupervised alternatively
> > powered device to monitored alarm control...
>
> And yet that is precisely what Al suggested in his article in SSI.
>
> > In all fairness to you, Robert...
>
> Now, there's a new twist.
>
> > you've raised an interesting point.  Al is both "right" and "wrong", but
> > not for the
> > reasons you've stated...
>
> Nope.  He is completely wrong and so are you -- precisely for the reasons
I
> stated.
>
> > There is no proviso in the NEC (and I do
> > possess a copy of it) that specifically prohibits
> > the connection of a relay like the Firex 499
> > to a security control or automatic dialler...
>
> Want to bet?
>
> > In fact, there isn't anything prohibiting a
> > homeowner ...
>
> That's misleading, Frank.  The code does not distinguish between
homeowners
> and paid installers.  Saying that the code does or does not allow a
> homeowner to do something implies that the DIYer is under less stringent
> regulations than the paid installer.  That is also patently false.
>
> > from hooking up a listed smoke detector (or
> > heat for that matter) to his monitored security
> > system...
>
> As long as the alarm panel carries the proper listing and the devices
being
> connected are listed for the purpose that is true.  However, in this case
> the devices are not so listed and the only known 110VAC smoke relay on the
> market is definitely not listed for use with an alarm control panel of any
> kind, much less a FACP.
>
> > The issue of compatibility (and the suggested methods of connnection)
are
> > included in every
> > instruction manual that accompanies any burglar
> > alarm panel.
>
> Those instructions specifically state that only fire alarm devices listed
> for the purpose are to be connected.  There's no exemption from fire alarm
> code just because one chooses to use a non-listed panel.  That decision
> would be a further code violation.
>
> >> The problem is Olson (who neither works nor lives in the USA) has zero
> >> understanding of our codes.  When you install smoke detectors or other
> >> fire detection devices in a building in the US they need to be
installed
> >> in accordance with code.  Period.
> >
> > The NEC mandates smoke detection in
> > every single family dwelling and specifies
> > the areas that are required to be covered...
>
> Stick to the subject at hand, Frank.  We're not talking about the
> requirement that there be smoke detectors.  We're talking about an
improper
> method of connecting them to an alarm panel.
>
> > I can do anything I damn well please in
> > my own house...
>
> Your house is in Canada.  We are discussing US code and anyewhere in the
US
> where NFPA is code you can not do anything you darn well please.  In some
> places a permit is required and some it is not.
>
> --
>
> Regards,
> Robert L Bass
>
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> Sarasota · Florida · 34231
> 877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
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