Re: Fire Side Chat -- Fire Alarm Code Issue

["Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

"Frank Olson" <feolson@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:BNZae.1130805$6l.572831@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "Robert L. Bass" <robertlbass@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:qMGdnbTSQ8plxvHfRVn-gQ@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Robert's been involved in this type of
>>> debate for years.  It's no sense arguing
>>> with him.  He'll never understand that
>>> a residential burg panel is not a listed
>>> FACP.
>>
>> You are absolutely wrong, Frank.  To use a residential burg panel with
>> smoke detectors anywhere in the US where NFPA is observed the panel MUST
>> bears a UL listing for residential fire alarm at a minimum.  You can not
>> just connect up whatever you happen to find to a fire alarm system --
>> residential or commercial.
>
> A burglar alarm panel will never be a listed fire alarm system.

For a burglar alarm panel to be connected to smoke detectors in the US it
must be listed for the purpose.  Connected to smokes, the listed panel
becomes a fire alarm system and is subject to fire alarm code.

> There are plenty of panels sold in the
> US that aren't UL listed for fire...

Those whuch are not listed for the purpose are not permitted to be connected
to smoke detectors.  Doing so is a code violation.

> There is nothing in any code or standard
> that prohibits a homeowner from connecting
> his 110VAC smoke alarm to an auto dialler
> or his security panel...

You can restate that falsehood as many times as you like and you will still
be wrong.

> You sell to DIY all the time.  I seriously
> doubt a homeowner is going to install a
> security system to the same standard as
> even you would have (when you were in
> the trade)...

Ignoring your rude choice of words, whether a DIYer installs as good as or
better than a technician is irrelavent to the discussion at hand.

> Al Columbo is absolutely correct...

Nope.  He's wrong and so are you.

> ... but I seriously doubt any professional installer would sanction (let
> alone actually
> hook up) an unsupervised alternatively
> powered device to monitored alarm control...

And yet that is precisely what Al suggested in his article in SSI.

> In all fairness to you, Robert...

Now, there's a new twist.

> you've raised an interesting point.  Al is both "right" and "wrong", but
> not for the
> reasons you've stated...

Nope.  He is completely wrong and so are you -- precisely for the reasons I
stated.

> There is no proviso in the NEC (and I do
> possess a copy of it) that specifically prohibits
> the connection of a relay like the Firex 499
> to a security control or automatic dialler...

Want to bet?

> In fact, there isn't anything prohibiting a
> homeowner ...

That's misleading, Frank.  The code does not distinguish between homeowners
and paid installers.  Saying that the code does or does not allow a
homeowner to do something implies that the DIYer is under less stringent
regulations than the paid installer.  That is also patently false.

> from hooking up a listed smoke detector (or
> heat for that matter) to his monitored security
> system...

As long as the alarm panel carries the proper listing and the devices being
connected are listed for the purpose that is true.  However, in this case
the devices are not so listed and the only known 110VAC smoke relay on the
market is definitely not listed for use with an alarm control panel of any
kind, much less a FACP.

> The issue of compatibility (and the suggested methods of connnection) are
> included in every
> instruction manual that accompanies any burglar
> alarm panel.

Those instructions specifically state that only fire alarm devices listed
for the purpose are to be connected.  There's no exemption from fire alarm
code just because one chooses to use a non-listed panel.  That decision
would be a further code violation.

>> The problem is Olson (who neither works nor lives in the USA) has zero
>> understanding of our codes.  When you install smoke detectors or other
>> fire detection devices in a building in the US they need to be installed
>> in accordance with code.  Period.
>
> The NEC mandates smoke detection in
> every single family dwelling and specifies
> the areas that are required to be covered...

Stick to the subject at hand, Frank.  We're not talking about the
requirement that there be smoke detectors.  We're talking about an improper
method of connecting them to an alarm panel.

> I can do anything I damn well please in
> my own house...

Your house is in Canada.  We are discussing US code and anyewhere in the US
where NFPA is code you can not do anything you darn well please.  In some
places a permit is required and some it is not.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

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