Re: INSTEON: Let the recalls begin ...

["Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@xxxxxxxxx>]

"Larry Moss" <moss@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

> Bobby,
>
> I shouldn't have opened my mouth.  I'm afraid this is going to end up
> rehashing old arguments.  That really wasn't my intent.  That's kind of
> pointless. I'm not really sure what mood I was in that I posted.  I don't
> usually post just to hear (or see) myself.  I usually only like to post
> when I truly have something new to offer, which, er, well, sorry to say, I
> don't.  So, I'll answer only to clarify what I meant before.

Don't be so hard on yourself.  You had every reason to respond and hopefully
our exchange will serve to clarify points that might be unclear on either
side of the argument.  You'd probably be surprised to learn I just ordered
two Icon switches as a result of this discussion.  It turns out the having
LED's on the switches will be useful in the locations where we can't easily
see the controlled load.  The LED will confirm that the outside lights are
really off during the day.  At $20 apiece, it's a risk I can live with.  And
as long as the LEDs aren't in the bedroom, they don't have low SAF.

> > Well, as I mentioned in the post you're quoting, I can buy 4 load
> > controllers for X-10 for the price of 1 Insteon controller. That's a big
> > price differential and I thought it was obvious from what written today
and
> > in the past.  Apparently not.
>
> You were very clear about that.  My comment was due to you talking about
> the non-cash cost.  Yes, X10 hardware can be acquired for less money.
> That's the reason I have it.  I just don't think using X10 as a comparison
> on the reliability and time expense really does anything to boost X10's
> merits.

Merits?  What merits?  (-:  It's dirt cheap.  That's its only merit.

> I have not yet played with Insteon myself.  (Yet another reason I
> should have stayed quiet.  I have no first hand experience.)

Obviously I don't believe in the "if you don't own it, don't talk about it"
rule.  I like to thoroughly investigate things before I buy or recommend
them.  I'd hardly get anywhere in the evaluation process if I didn't discuss
what I didn't own.  I try to limit my comments to analysis of the experience
of others that I know to be reliable observers.

> What amuses me (and yeah it was really amusement, nothing
> more) is that you seem to find postings of
> problems/questions/issues with Insteon as a reason to champion
> X10.  I'm not talking about your comments just in this thread. It
> seems that every chance you get you jump in with, "then it's not
> better than X10".

That's a truthful observation.  I like to make sure the "next big thing" is
what it's cracked up to be and Insteon had clearly been marketed as a
serious improvement to the X-10 protocol.  I want to know what makes people
switch and whether Insteon's going to make my life easier or harder.  I want
to be sure it's really better before I buy into it.

> I wish you could see my face now.  An emoticon isn't sufficient.
> I'm smiling as I write this.  I'm not bashing you, picking on you,
> or anything else negative.  Think of my last post as merely an
> observation.
> :-)

I'm not worried.  One thing I've learned from one of the more quiet experts
here is that when you think someone's offensive or is dogging you, stop
replying.  We're still talking so that's a very positive sign.   I assume
that you're doing the very American thing "defending the underdog."  There's
no crime in that.  The only difference is that we both are championing
different underdogs!

> >>It has all the same problems when dealing with a new installation.
> >
> > Must respectfully disagree.  With X-10, I take a yellow pad, twist two
dials
> > and mark down "Bathroom = F10" and I am done.  Insteon apparently adds a
fun
> > "manual linking" step to that installation process.   They also
apparently
> > added a magical "reset upon unknown circumstances" feature long ago that
> > they still have not resolved. Those aren't the "same" problems, they are
> > "new" problems, and apparently thorny ones if these devices can unlink
and
> > relink and reset themselves at will with no clue as to why.
>
> ok, maybe I should have said, "an equivalent number of problems."

I'll agree with that and add that most of X-10 issues are well-known and
easy to work around.  Insteon's (and other Smarthome issues) problems are
somewhat murkier and harder to resolve.

> >> You frequently talk about all the knowledge that's on the 'net and
> >> all anyone has to do is *spend time* researching the issues.
> >
> > That doesn't sound like me to me, but if you say so . . .
>
> If I get a chance, I'll look up the discussion we had a while back.  That
> is what I remember.  Maybe my memory is wrong.

No need.  I'll concede the point.  I'm not sure I said it in reference to
Insteon, where, as I said above, the solutions to some problems seem to be
still unknown no matter how much research one does.

> > FWIW, I didn't start this thread.  Are you
> > sure you're not conflating postings from several different posters?
>
> No.  I was thinking of your comments here as it related to other threads,
> including a month old one that the two of us discussed a lot and where you
> were one of the people trying to help me through a problem.  (That
> assistance is greatly appreciated.  If I didn't say it before, thank you.)

OK - I didn't realize anyone remembered what I wrote a month ago!  I don't.
:-) And you're welcome, although I am pretty sure you thanked everyone
previously.

>> Whether it's a shower massager or a home automation
>> component, I would maintain spares. So in reality, the gap
>> between Insteon and X-10 widens, not decreases, because
>> X-10 spares are cheaper.
>
> In my year and a half of using X10, I've already had some things fail. X10
> stuff has been unreliable.  there have been reports of the unreliability
of
> Insteon, notably with the flicker. And this recall certainly creates
> questions.  But I do believe they are acting responsibly.

I might have to take exception with that.  I think "responsible" in this
case is not selling any more switches until they are all fixed.  They chose
to do otherwise, and that, IMHO, means they evaluated the potential risk as
decided they had more to lose by halting sales than they would having to
recall switches.  Time will tell whether it was the right choice.

> I haven't heard of a lot of (any?) total failures of Insteon
> devices yet.  So, yeah, having a few backups of things around
> isn't bad.  I wonder though if you need to have the cases of
>backups that everyone I know with X10 stuff keeps.

I wouldn't own half the X-10 spares I own if they weren't so darn cheap by
the case I knew I would kick myself if I passed them by.  That is what
tended to make me buy them in mass quantities.

> If replacements arent' needed as often, the higher monetary
> price is worth it. I believe this is still a definite unknown.  So I
> hesitate to stand in the way of progress in order to continue
> using a system that's known to be flawed.

That's a difficult decision.  I realized after writing about spares that I
hadn't accounted for another subtle effect of having them.  They act as a
ballast that keeps me from easily moving to the "next big thing" because
they increase my investment in the old technology.

> > Although I have a box of spare X-10 wall switches (they were $3 and
change
> > each at closeout), I haven't replaced one in perhaps 10 years now.
(Some
> > Murphy's Law wags would say that's the point of having spares:  Having
them
> > on hand means you'll never need them!)
>
> I picked up a bunch of used stuff recently for backup purposes.  None of
> the used stuff has failed on me, but several of the ones purchased as new
> did.  (Smarthome replaced them without question.)

Were they X10 made devices or Smarthome X-10 devices that failed?

> Anyway, I didn't htink you were picking on Smarthome more
> than any other vendor, and I wasn't trying to pick on your or
> start anything.  I really don't know why I opened my mouth.
> sorry about that.`

Don't worry so much.  I enjoyed the discussion.  It was all "above the belt"
and no one bit anyone else's ear off, virtual or otherwise.  Who could ask
for more?

--
Bobby G.