Re: INSTEON: Let the recalls begin ...

["Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@xxxxxxxxx>]

"Larry Moss" <moss@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
<ROBERT_GREEN1963@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> > But as my econ prof said "Wouldn't you rather be doing something else
you
> > *wanted* to do that day?"  Lost opportunity costs are hard to see, but
> > they're there.
>
> I find it interesting that you find lost opportunity cost and other time
> expenses in Insteon while you continue to talk about how inexpensive X10
> is.  I'm not going to claim that Insteon is cheaper than X10, but I don't
> see how X10 is cheaper either.

Well, as I mentioned in the post you're quoting, I can buy 4 load
controllers for X-10 for the price of 1 Insteon controller.  That makes it
1/4 the price of Insteon components, at least the way I buy things:  in
quantity and on sale.  And that's even being generous because I'm comparing
it to the Insteon *sales* price.  That's a big price differential and I
thought it was obvious from what written today and in the past.  Apparently
not.

>It has all the same problems when dealing with a new installation.

Must respectfully disagree.  With X-10, I take a yellow pad, twist two dials
and mark down "Bathroom = F10" and I am done.  Insteon apparently adds a fun
"manual linking" step to that installation process.   They also apparently
added a magical "reset upon unknown circumstances" feature long ago that
they still have not resolved. Those aren't the "same" problems, they are
"new" problems, and apparently thorny ones if these devices can unlink and
relink and reset themselves at will with no clue as to why.

> Yes, you can make it work quite well, but you have to go
> through the debugging phase.

I'm definitely *not* saying that new systems don't have settling in issues.
I doubt very much you'd ever find me making such a claim.  What I reject is
calling something an improvement when from my POV it adds steps to a process
or when it turns out to be no more reliable than the system it is replacing.
Why would *I* trade out my X-10 for Insteon?  No one has posted any "killer
application" function of Insteon that makes me say to myself: "Gee, I'd give
up all my X-10 just to have that."  In fact, what's happened is the complete
reverse.  Now that I have some XTB's, the only reason I would have switched
to Insteon (better signal strength) is gone.

> You frequently talk about all the knowledge that's on the 'net and
> all anyone has to do is *spend time* researching the issues.

That doesn't sound like me to me, but if you say so . . .  BTW, I disagree
with that contention "All anyone has to do" because no matter how much
research an end user does, it's not going to compensate for the wrong choke
in a switch circuit or a switch that resets it ID after certain types of
power glitches.  Firmware and SW glitches are a lot easier to work around
than hardware design errors.  FWIW, I didn't start this thread.  Are you
sure you're not conflating postings from several different posters?

> You've also talked about the inexpensive pile of X10 stuff you
> have for the inevitable replacement of dead switches.  If you
> have to have a box of spares, no matter how inexpensive they
> were, the cost has increased.

I'm sorry Larry, but you reached a bad conclusion.  I would buy spares, no
matter who made them because I believe in spares.  You mistook alleged X-10
unreliability as the basis for my insistence on having spares.  I have
spares because of the unreliability of the market.  I want "on site"
replacement parts for mission critical items.  Period.  Whether it's a
shower massager or a home automation component, I would maintain spares. So
in reality, the gap between Insteon and X-10 widens, not decreases, because
X-10 spares are cheaper.

> And of course, there's the time you put into actually doing
> those replacements.

Although I have a box of spare X-10 wall switches (they were $3 and change
each at closeout), I haven't replaced one in perhaps 10 years now.  (Some
Murphy's Law wags would say that's the point of having spares:  Having them
on hand means you'll never need them!)

Once I got all Stanley units and began observing their instructions on how
to connect black and blue (derived from reading this very newsgroup, BTW) I
experienced no more wall switch failures.  So, as far as comparing my
"jacking out switches endlessly factor" I'd say it was zero to Insteon's 20
or so.

> As I've said before, I have no problem with your use of X10,

You don't know how good that makes me feel!  :-)  Really!  But something
tells me those words imply that there's something I'm doing that you DO have
a problem with . . .

> and I wholeheartedly agree that your personal X10 experience
> has given you the knowledge to act quickly at this point when
> dealing with X10 issues.

Even an ego stroke, too.  The hammer must be about to fall.

> But I fail to see why you're looking
> so hard to find fault with Insteon (and others).

Ouch!  The hammer falls.  If it sounds like all I am doing is Insteon
bashing, I'm sorry, and in more than one dimension.  It means that I've
failed in my primary goal of getting people to exercise caution before
abandoning X-10 for new stuff just because it's new, I expect vendors to
prove their claims that it is indeed "far superior."  I also expect vendors
to beta test thoroughly or to face the consequences of failing to test
completely.

So far, I see no superiority and report it as such.  My wife hates switches
with LED's, so that's not a draw for me.  We hardly ever dim the lights, let
alone program scenes, so that's not a draw for me.

So, what do you think I should be writing about Insteon?  That's it's really
never likely that you'll break off a wire jackassing switches in and out?
That wouldn't be true because I learned from the bad old defective X-10
wallswitch days that you don't want to overwork 60 year old solid copper
wiring.  I know from that experience if you bugger up a wire well enough,
you have created a monstrous amount of work for yourself that probably
involves drywalling and repainting the room.

I think it would be a disservice to the user community to fail to remind
them of these potential issues.  Sorry if you think I'm picking on Smarthome
but I suspect in the face of fierce competitive pressure that they rushed
Insteon a little.  If so, that's a marketing cost *they* should bear, rather
than pushing it off on their customers by making them pull, return and
reinstall switches.   If I were them, I'd offer to pay for an electrician to
do the work in exchange for an NDA.  But I think the ship already sailed on
the quiet way out.  Now, ironically, there's noise on the line in more ways
than one.

>You seem to only see the faults in the system you aren't using.

Consider it an opportunity for those who are using the system to tell me
what it does that's so great I should go through the trouble and expense of
yanking X-10 and installing Insteon.  If Insteon wants to send me some
betas, I will be more than happy to test them.  But I ain't paying for that
"privilege."  So far, I see people doing a lot of work at a significant cost
without a lot of payout, at least in terms of what would be useful to my HA
needs.

Just so that you're sure I am not biased against Smarthome, I think that
their website is the best in the business and that their 4071 X-10 Maxi
controller is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

http://www.smarthome.com/4071.html

These three features:

1)  Ten non-sequential user-programmable soft-touch buttons
2)  Easily access all 256 X10 addresses
3)  Multi-house code programmable All Lights On/All Units Off buttons

The Smarthome ControLinc Maxis are just outrageously useful.  To anyone who
has lights on multiple housecodes, feature 3) is really something you can't
live without.  It's just too bad they don't have Jeff's XTB booster
built-in.  When the budget permits, and if Insteon still doesn't impress me,
I am going to buy two or three more Smarthome Maxi's and XTB's to drive
them.  With their built in macro capabilities, they give me functionality
that no other X-10 device can provide.  That, to me, is the "killer app"
that Insteon is still lacking.

I may still end up getting some Icon gear because I have some shallow
wallboxes that I've worked around with X-10 (Sticka switch).  I could
eliminate the Stickas if the Icons will fit.  I'm just not sure I want to
yet.

In fact, that reminds me that more than half of the controllers I have for
X-10 aren't even made (yet?) for the Insteon world.

Do I really have to be an Insteon user to make that sort of comparison or do
I just need to be able to read a catalog?

Do I really need to own an Insteon switch to know that jackassing switches
in and out of wall boxes all day long is bothersome and potentially very
troublesome if you break off a wire close to the wall?

Do I really need to have an Insteon switch to know that I wouldn't like to
have to press and hold buttons and run back and forth between switches and
controllers to program them?

Do I really need to own an Insteon switch to know that every switch you add
is an impediment to existing X-10 traffic?  (Well, someone had to own some
to know, but thankfully, it was not me!)

Do I really need to have an Insteon switch to know that my wife doesn't like
LEDs glowing from every corner of the house?

--
Bobby G.

War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left.