Re: Panel grounding

[tourman <robercampbell@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Dec 16, 12:33=A0am, Effenpig1 <dirtyspicev...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Dec 15, 7:39=A0am, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 13, 11:50=A0pm, Effenpig1 <dirtyspicev...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 13, 11:33=A0pm, tourman <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 13, 11:02=A0pm, Effenpig1 <dirtyspicev...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote=
:
>
> > > > > On Dec 13, 7:13=A0pm, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote=
:
>
> > > > > > On Dec 13, 6:50=A0pm, Effenpig1 <dirtyspicev...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wr=
ote:
>
> > > > > > > On Dec 13, 6:33=A0pm, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> w=
rote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Dec 13, 2:49=A0pm, "Kid" <k...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > "tourman" <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>
> > > > > > > > >news:b3c7c123-86b8-4de2-9c98-fbc2ee313077@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=
egroups.com...
> > > > > > > > > On Dec 13, 10:25 am, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx=
> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Dec 13, 9:47 am, "Kid" <k...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > "tourman" <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>
> > > > > > > > > > >news:7e9334a2-056d-4dbe-bc6c-e4ec70a81829@xxxxxxxxxxxx=
ooglegroups.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > RHC: Yeah, I agree with you. I keep precise statistic=
s on service
> > > > > > > > > > > work. With over 1000 panels in service, I have had to=
 replace a total
> > > > > > > > > > > of 8 boards due to electrical surges damaging the pan=
el in 15 years.
> > > > > > > > > > > Had I installed the Elk grounding unit for everyone, =
that would have
> > > > > > > > > > > been a cost of over $30,000 with limited payback. I p=
refer to spend
> > > > > > > > > > > the extra money on upgraded keypads and upgraded pet =
motions for
> > > > > > > > > > > everyone, and deal with dead panels as they happen (a=
t $50 a pop plus
> > > > > > > > > > > cost of a service call). This with a severe lightning=
 strike problem
> > > > > > > > > > > in parts of our city being a known fact as well...
>
> > > > > > > > > > > BTW, two of those damaged panels were at one rural cu=
stomer location,
> > > > > > > > > > > and both within a week of each other. I guess the tel=
ephone company
> > > > > > > > > > > plant was poorly grounded. This was early on, and It =
took me twice to
> > > > > > > > > > > learn....:((
>
> > > > > > > > > > > I have a customer that had been hit twice before I pu=
t the elk unit on.
> > > > > > > > > > > his
> > > > > > > > > > > house is on a granite outcrop and he apparently can.t=
 get a very good
> > > > > > > > > > > ground. on the third hit the elk unit blew out knocki=
ng out the phone
> > > > > > > > > > > line.
> > > > > > > > > > > but the panel board was ok. all I had to do was repla=
ce the elk unit.
> > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > much difference between the price of the elk unit and=
 a new board,
> > > > > > > > > > > though.
> > > > > > > > > > > made me wonder if it was really worth it but it was e=
asier to replace
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > elk unit than rewire a new board. if the panel was li=
ke the old moose
> > > > > > > > > > > where
> > > > > > > > > > > you could just pop a board on without touching the wi=
ring I might think
> > > > > > > > > > > twice.
>
> > > > > > > > > > Im dealing with commercial fire and high end combo fire=
/burg panels
> > > > > > > > > > and the panels have to work its a life safety issue
> > > > > > > > > > and we get plenty of lightning and high wind storms, br=
own outs ,
> > > > > > > > > > poles hit etc here in Pa. so the protection is well wor=
th it $25.00 to
> > > > > > > > > > save upwards of several thousand dollars.
>
> > > > > > > > > > Have customers who had direct hits and there buildings =
were saved as
> > > > > > > > > > well as vast majority of equipment was saved Vs other b=
uildings hit
> > > > > > > > > > around here that went up in flames go figure.
> > > > > > > > > > It is just like the $100.00- 3 phase power protectors I=
 install on
> > > > > > > > > > machines etc which saves thousands of dollars in motor =
replacement.
>
> > > > > > > > > RHC: I don't disagree with you Nick. It's just like every=
thing else in
> > > > > > > > > business....it's cost versus gain. Your life saving situa=
tions are
> > > > > > > > > precisely where any and all protection is worth every pen=
ny. But for
> > > > > > > > > "low end" residential systems, where every nickel spent i=
s under
> > > > > > > > > question by the customer, it might even "break" the sale =
!!!! It's not
> > > > > > > > > cost effective in these situations to do so from any pers=
pective when
> > > > > > > > > so few systems are affected.....
>
> > > > > > > > > plus there is no quarantee when it comes to lightening. =
=A0it can just as
> > > > > > > > > easily blow out the protection and the panel.
>
> > > > > > > > Another reason i do not do residential.
> > > > > > > > no money in it.
> > > > > > > > lets see do 20 residential systems to make what i do on hig=
h end
> > > > > > > > integrated commercial real tough one there.
>
> > > > > > > I guess that depends on how you look at it. You could also sp=
in it to
> > > > > > > say you could do 20 small residential systems in the same tim=
e it
> > > > > > > takes to do one high end integrated commercial system, and co=
llect RMR
> > > > > > > from all 20 of those accounts indefinitely.
>
> > > > > > > But for me the choice is easy since their is virtually no dem=
and for
> > > > > > > high end commercial systems in my service area.
>
> > > > > > > I have a hard time believing that you would convince any smal=
l, mostly
> > > > > > > residential/light commercial dealer with a decent number of a=
ccounts
> > > > > > > that there is " no money in it ". =A0I guess it would all dep=
end on each
> > > > > > > individuals perception how much money "no money" is.
>
> > > > > > I have the advantage of not having to rely on RMR on accounts I=
 make
> > > > > > money both installs and service plus I offer services no one el=
se can
> > > > > > on the integration end . Since I am cross trained in electronic=
s ,
> > > > > > electrician and refrigeration
> > > > > > I can offer some very unique designed systems.
> > > > > > I could step away from alarms today and make money selling telc=
o/data
> > > > > > services, commercial sound /paging and intercom ,electrical/tro=
uble
> > > > > > shooting services and =A0electrical mechanical design services =
you
> > > > > > should see the custom built 12/24 DC and 220/480 VAC =A0control=
 systems
> > > > > > I build for people.
> > > > > > =A0and =A0never touch an alarm panel. Plus I am a Broadcast eng=
ineer i
> > > > > > could just work in that field full time if i wanted to.
> > > > > > I was fortunate enough 30 yrs ago to see the steel mills were g=
oing
> > > > > > down around here so I went to every trade school and class i co=
uld get
> > > > > > my hands on I figured this way i would always have work which w=
as a
> > > > > > good thing.
> > > > > > Alarms are just part of the services I can offer a customer. So=
 I do
> > > > > > not go out and bid against alarm company's customers come looki=
ng for
> > > > > > me because the custom work I can do that no one else can. Yet i=
diots
> > > > > > around here think I am stealing work from them when it is work =
they
> > > > > > can not do. I am not even in the phone book and do not advertis=
e.
>
> > > > > > Ask Al Colombo from SSI Magazine he has seen a lot of my stuff.
>
> > > > > Well, that's great for you, BUT, the only things I have mastered =
so
> > > > > far are tying my shoes and installing alarm systems, so I guess I=
'm
> > > > > screwed.
>
> > > > > Actually, I worked as an electrician from 18-15 and in alarm syst=
ems
> > > > > from 25-31 so I guess I could always fall back on electrical if I=
 had
> > > > > to. But I've said it before and I'll say it again, maybe I'm an R=
MR
> > > > > whore, but if it doesn't produce RMR I don't see the point in doi=
ng
> > > > > it.
>
> > > > > How did we get here from panel grounding?
>
> > > > RHC: Oh, don't worry about it.... this is the norm in this newsgrou=
p
> > > > of straying off the original topic. Just about every thread goes of=
f
> > > > topic after most everything constructive has been said about the
> > > > original topic; then it degenerates quickly with one or two people
> > > > sniping at one or two others, and it's a downhill spiral from
> > > > there.....only solution I've found is to ignore the balance of the
> > > > thread after it starts to go south. You know it's definately "over"
> > > > when RLB receives a shot or two.....:))
>
> > > BTW, I wasn't complaining about the thread straying off topic, I enjo=
y
> > > and legitimate discussion or stories related to the industry. I have
> > > spent some time on some DIY forum and I generally answer questions,
> > > not ask them. I believe there are people here with a huge amount of
> > > knowledge about the industry and since I certainly don't know it all
> > > (not even close), it's nice to be able to "ask" the questions instead
> > > of answer them. Unless it turns into what I believe you refer to as a
> > > "flame" war ? =A0Ha, ha, Seriously, I really appreciate any input or
> > > discussion whether on or "off" topic.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > RMR is a good thing but if you do not back it up with service then the
> > checks disapear.
> > I had a couple cancelations with the economy but I knowothers who have
> > gotten hit hard from it and now there in a fix becuse they depend on
> > RMR
>
> I would think RMR would not differ from any other income in this
> matter. If one were to live paycheck to paycheck on a $100,000 salary,
> and then get a paycut down to $50,000, they would be in trouble. But I
> would find it hard to believe that someone would consider a $100,000
> salary a bad thing because of this. As far as the economy and it's
> relation to RMR, I would think that a slow economy would likely affect
> new business more so than existing customers, meaning a service based
> business relying on new customers would be more likely to feel the
> slowdown than one relying on existing customers.

RHC: I guess I'm luckier than most in some ways. The area I service is
the capitol city of Ottawa, and it's filled with highly paid
government workers who's jobs are safe compared to the average man on
the street. Also, housing is still booming here, unlike everywhere
else in North America (government towns tend to be isolated in many
ways from reality). Honestly, I cannot keep up with the demand for new
service through referrals and my website. Other small dealers I know
are in the same boat. I have to artificially restrict myself to two
installations a week and leave the balance of the week open for other
business related activities. And frankly, my son and I are fast
approaching the "second glass ceiling" where if we go over about 1200
accounts, we will need another person. And I do NOT want this to
happen ( I know Jim...don't say it...:)) So I've started cutting back
on "takeovers" since these usually create an inordinate amount of
service work over time.

I have to really think this one out because I have about five good
years left in me for installs, and I don't want this to ever stop
being a "family business". So I have some hard choices ahead of me. I
have a buyer who has for years been trying to get my accounts (at a
superb multiple I should say). However, I don't like that idea either.
Plus, I've just been diagnosed with very early prostate cancer, so
treatment may take away from time allotted for installs.

I guess relative to some in our industry, my position is not all that
bad...