Re: Panel grounding

[tourman <robercampbell@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Dec 13, 11:02=A0pm, Effenpig1 <dirtyspicev...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Dec 13, 7:13=A0pm, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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> > On Dec 13, 6:50=A0pm, Effenpig1 <dirtyspicev...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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> > > On Dec 13, 6:33=A0pm, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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> > > > On Dec 13, 2:49=A0pm, "Kid" <k...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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> > > > > "tourman" <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:b3c7c123-86b8-4de2-9c98-fbc2ee313077@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=
com...
> > > > > On Dec 13, 10:25 am, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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> > > > > > On Dec 13, 9:47 am, "Kid" <k...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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> > > > > > > "tourman" <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>
> > > > > > >news:7e9334a2-056d-4dbe-bc6c-e4ec70a81829@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=
ups.com...
> > > > > > > RHC: Yeah, I agree with you. I keep precise statistics on ser=
vice
> > > > > > > work. With over 1000 panels in service, I have had to replace=
 a total
> > > > > > > of 8 boards due to electrical surges damaging the panel in 15=
 years.
> > > > > > > Had I installed the Elk grounding unit for everyone, that wou=
ld have
> > > > > > > been a cost of over $30,000 with limited payback. I prefer to=
 spend
> > > > > > > the extra money on upgraded keypads and upgraded pet motions =
for
> > > > > > > everyone, and deal with dead panels as they happen (at $50 a =
pop plus
> > > > > > > cost of a service call). This with a severe lightning strike =
problem
> > > > > > > in parts of our city being a known fact as well...
>
> > > > > > > BTW, two of those damaged panels were at one rural customer l=
ocation,
> > > > > > > and both within a week of each other. I guess the telephone c=
ompany
> > > > > > > plant was poorly grounded. This was early on, and It took me =
twice to
> > > > > > > learn....:((
>
> > > > > > > I have a customer that had been hit twice before I put the el=
k unit on.
> > > > > > > his
> > > > > > > house is on a granite outcrop and he apparently can.t get a v=
ery good
> > > > > > > ground. on the third hit the elk unit blew out knocking out t=
he phone
> > > > > > > line.
> > > > > > > but the panel board was ok. all I had to do was replace the e=
lk unit.
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > much difference between the price of the elk unit and a new b=
oard,
> > > > > > > though.
> > > > > > > made me wonder if it was really worth it but it was easier to=
 replace
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > elk unit than rewire a new board. if the panel was like the o=
ld moose
> > > > > > > where
> > > > > > > you could just pop a board on without touching the wiring I m=
ight think
> > > > > > > twice.
>
> > > > > > Im dealing with commercial fire and high end combo fire/burg pa=
nels
> > > > > > and the panels have to work its a life safety issue
> > > > > > and we get plenty of lightning and high wind storms, brown outs=
 ,
> > > > > > poles hit etc here in Pa. so the protection is well worth it $2=
5.00 to
> > > > > > save upwards of several thousand dollars.
>
> > > > > > Have customers who had direct hits and there buildings were sav=
ed as
> > > > > > well as vast majority of equipment was saved Vs other buildings=
 hit
> > > > > > around here that went up in flames go figure.
> > > > > > It is just like the $100.00- 3 phase power protectors I install=
 on
> > > > > > machines etc which saves thousands of dollars in motor replacem=
ent.
>
> > > > > RHC: I don't disagree with you Nick. It's just like everything el=
se in
> > > > > business....it's cost versus gain. Your life saving situations ar=
e
> > > > > precisely where any and all protection is worth every penny. But =
for
> > > > > "low end" residential systems, where every nickel spent is under
> > > > > question by the customer, it might even "break" the sale !!!! It'=
s not
> > > > > cost effective in these situations to do so from any perspective =
when
> > > > > so few systems are affected.....
>
> > > > > plus there is no quarantee when it comes to lightening. =A0it can=
 just as
> > > > > easily blow out the protection and the panel.
>
> > > > Another reason i do not do residential.
> > > > no money in it.
> > > > lets see do 20 residential systems to make what i do on high end
> > > > integrated commercial real tough one there.
>
> > > I guess that depends on how you look at it. You could also spin it to
> > > say you could do 20 small residential systems in the same time it
> > > takes to do one high end integrated commercial system, and collect RM=
R
> > > from all 20 of those accounts indefinitely.
>
> > > But for me the choice is easy since their is virtually no demand for
> > > high end commercial systems in my service area.
>
> > > I have a hard time believing that you would convince any small, mostl=
y
> > > residential/light commercial dealer with a decent number of accounts
> > > that there is " no money in it ". =A0I guess it would all depend on e=
ach
> > > individuals perception how much money "no money" is.
>
> > I have the advantage of not having to rely on RMR on accounts I make
> > money both installs and service plus I offer services no one else can
> > on the integration end . Since I am cross trained in electronics ,
> > electrician and refrigeration
> > I can offer some very unique designed systems.
> > I could step away from alarms today and make money selling telco/data
> > services, commercial sound /paging and intercom ,electrical/trouble
> > shooting services and =A0electrical mechanical design services you
> > should see the custom built 12/24 DC and 220/480 VAC =A0control systems
> > I build for people.
> > =A0and =A0never touch an alarm panel. Plus I am a Broadcast engineer i
> > could just work in that field full time if i wanted to.
> > I was fortunate enough 30 yrs ago to see the steel mills were going
> > down around here so I went to every trade school and class i could get
> > my hands on I figured this way i would always have work which was a
> > good thing.
> > Alarms are just part of the services I can offer a customer. So I do
> > not go out and bid against alarm company's customers come looking for
> > me because the custom work I can do that no one else can. Yet idiots
> > around here think I am stealing work from them when it is work they
> > can not do. I am not even in the phone book and do not advertise.
>
> > Ask Al Colombo from SSI Magazine he has seen a lot of my stuff.
>
> Well, that's great for you, BUT, the only things I have mastered so
> far are tying my shoes and installing alarm systems, so I guess I'm
> screwed.
>
> Actually, I worked as an electrician from 18-15 and in alarm systems
> from 25-31 so I guess I could always fall back on electrical if I had
> to. But I've said it before and I'll say it again, maybe I'm an RMR
> whore, but if it doesn't produce RMR I don't see the point in doing
> it.
>
> How did we get here from panel grounding?

RHC: Oh, don't worry about it.... this is the norm in this newsgroup
of straying off the original topic. Just about every thread goes off
topic after most everything constructive has been said about the
original topic; then it degenerates quickly with one or two people
sniping at one or two others, and it's a downhill spiral from
there.....only solution I've found is to ignore the balance of the
thread after it starts to go south. You know it's definately "over"
when RLB receives a shot or two.....:))