Re: Panel grounding

[Effenpig1 <dirtyspicevent@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Dec 15, 7:39=A0am, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Dec 13, 11:50=A0pm, Effenpig1 <dirtyspicev...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 13, 11:33=A0pm, tourman <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 13, 11:02=A0pm, Effenpig1 <dirtyspicev...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 13, 7:13=A0pm, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Dec 13, 6:50=A0pm, Effenpig1 <dirtyspicev...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrot=
e:
>
> > > > > > On Dec 13, 6:33=A0pm, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wro=
te:
>
> > > > > > > On Dec 13, 2:49=A0pm, "Kid" <k...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > "tourman" <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>
> > > > > > > >news:b3c7c123-86b8-4de2-9c98-fbc2ee313077@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=
roups.com...
> > > > > > > > On Dec 13, 10:25 am, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> =
wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On Dec 13, 9:47 am, "Kid" <k...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > "tourman" <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>
> > > > > > > > > >news:7e9334a2-056d-4dbe-bc6c-e4ec70a81829@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx=
glegroups.com...
> > > > > > > > > > RHC: Yeah, I agree with you. I keep precise statistics =
on service
> > > > > > > > > > work. With over 1000 panels in service, I have had to r=
eplace a total
> > > > > > > > > > of 8 boards due to electrical surges damaging the panel=
 in 15 years.
> > > > > > > > > > Had I installed the Elk grounding unit for everyone, th=
at would have
> > > > > > > > > > been a cost of over $30,000 with limited payback. I pre=
fer to spend
> > > > > > > > > > the extra money on upgraded keypads and upgraded pet mo=
tions for
> > > > > > > > > > everyone, and deal with dead panels as they happen (at =
$50 a pop plus
> > > > > > > > > > cost of a service call). This with a severe lightning s=
trike problem
> > > > > > > > > > in parts of our city being a known fact as well...
>
> > > > > > > > > > BTW, two of those damaged panels were at one rural cust=
omer location,
> > > > > > > > > > and both within a week of each other. I guess the telep=
hone company
> > > > > > > > > > plant was poorly grounded. This was early on, and It to=
ok me twice to
> > > > > > > > > > learn....:((
>
> > > > > > > > > > I have a customer that had been hit twice before I put =
the elk unit on.
> > > > > > > > > > his
> > > > > > > > > > house is on a granite outcrop and he apparently can.t g=
et a very good
> > > > > > > > > > ground. on the third hit the elk unit blew out knocking=
 out the phone
> > > > > > > > > > line.
> > > > > > > > > > but the panel board was ok. all I had to do was replace=
 the elk unit.
> > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > much difference between the price of the elk unit and a=
 new board,
> > > > > > > > > > though.
> > > > > > > > > > made me wonder if it was really worth it but it was eas=
ier to replace
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > elk unit than rewire a new board. if the panel was like=
 the old moose
> > > > > > > > > > where
> > > > > > > > > > you could just pop a board on without touching the wiri=
ng I might think
> > > > > > > > > > twice.
>
> > > > > > > > > Im dealing with commercial fire and high end combo fire/b=
urg panels
> > > > > > > > > and the panels have to work its a life safety issue
> > > > > > > > > and we get plenty of lightning and high wind storms, brow=
n outs ,
> > > > > > > > > poles hit etc here in Pa. so the protection is well worth=
 it $25.00 to
> > > > > > > > > save upwards of several thousand dollars.
>
> > > > > > > > > Have customers who had direct hits and there buildings we=
re saved as
> > > > > > > > > well as vast majority of equipment was saved Vs other bui=
ldings hit
> > > > > > > > > around here that went up in flames go figure.
> > > > > > > > > It is just like the $100.00- 3 phase power protectors I i=
nstall on
> > > > > > > > > machines etc which saves thousands of dollars in motor re=
placement.
>
> > > > > > > > RHC: I don't disagree with you Nick. It's just like everyth=
ing else in
> > > > > > > > business....it's cost versus gain. Your life saving situati=
ons are
> > > > > > > > precisely where any and all protection is worth every penny=
. But for
> > > > > > > > "low end" residential systems, where every nickel spent is =
under
> > > > > > > > question by the customer, it might even "break" the sale !!=
!! It's not
> > > > > > > > cost effective in these situations to do so from any perspe=
ctive when
> > > > > > > > so few systems are affected.....
>
> > > > > > > > plus there is no quarantee when it comes to lightening. =A0=
it can just as
> > > > > > > > easily blow out the protection and the panel.
>
> > > > > > > Another reason i do not do residential.
> > > > > > > no money in it.
> > > > > > > lets see do 20 residential systems to make what i do on high =
end
> > > > > > > integrated commercial real tough one there.
>
> > > > > > I guess that depends on how you look at it. You could also spin=
 it to
> > > > > > say you could do 20 small residential systems in the same time =
it
> > > > > > takes to do one high end integrated commercial system, and coll=
ect RMR
> > > > > > from all 20 of those accounts indefinitely.
>
> > > > > > But for me the choice is easy since their is virtually no deman=
d for
> > > > > > high end commercial systems in my service area.
>
> > > > > > I have a hard time believing that you would convince any small,=
 mostly
> > > > > > residential/light commercial dealer with a decent number of acc=
ounts
> > > > > > that there is " no money in it ". =A0I guess it would all depen=
d on each
> > > > > > individuals perception how much money "no money" is.
>
> > > > > I have the advantage of not having to rely on RMR on accounts I m=
ake
> > > > > money both installs and service plus I offer services no one else=
 can
> > > > > on the integration end . Since I am cross trained in electronics =
,
> > > > > electrician and refrigeration
> > > > > I can offer some very unique designed systems.
> > > > > I could step away from alarms today and make money selling telco/=
data
> > > > > services, commercial sound /paging and intercom ,electrical/troub=
le
> > > > > shooting services and =A0electrical mechanical design services yo=
u
> > > > > should see the custom built 12/24 DC and 220/480 VAC =A0control s=
ystems
> > > > > I build for people.
> > > > > =A0and =A0never touch an alarm panel. Plus I am a Broadcast engin=
eer i
> > > > > could just work in that field full time if i wanted to.
> > > > > I was fortunate enough 30 yrs ago to see the steel mills were goi=
ng
> > > > > down around here so I went to every trade school and class i coul=
d get
> > > > > my hands on I figured this way i would always have work which was=
 a
> > > > > good thing.
> > > > > Alarms are just part of the services I can offer a customer. So I=
 do
> > > > > not go out and bid against alarm company's customers come looking=
 for
> > > > > me because the custom work I can do that no one else can. Yet idi=
ots
> > > > > around here think I am stealing work from them when it is work th=
ey
> > > > > can not do. I am not even in the phone book and do not advertise.
>
> > > > > Ask Al Colombo from SSI Magazine he has seen a lot of my stuff.
>
> > > > Well, that's great for you, BUT, the only things I have mastered so
> > > > far are tying my shoes and installing alarm systems, so I guess I'm
> > > > screwed.
>
> > > > Actually, I worked as an electrician from 18-15 and in alarm system=
s
> > > > from 25-31 so I guess I could always fall back on electrical if I h=
ad
> > > > to. But I've said it before and I'll say it again, maybe I'm an RMR
> > > > whore, but if it doesn't produce RMR I don't see the point in doing
> > > > it.
>
> > > > How did we get here from panel grounding?
>
> > > RHC: Oh, don't worry about it.... this is the norm in this newsgroup
> > > of straying off the original topic. Just about every thread goes off
> > > topic after most everything constructive has been said about the
> > > original topic; then it degenerates quickly with one or two people
> > > sniping at one or two others, and it's a downhill spiral from
> > > there.....only solution I've found is to ignore the balance of the
> > > thread after it starts to go south. You know it's definately "over"
> > > when RLB receives a shot or two.....:))
>
> > BTW, I wasn't complaining about the thread straying off topic, I enjoy
> > and legitimate discussion or stories related to the industry. I have
> > spent some time on some DIY forum and I generally answer questions,
> > not ask them. I believe there are people here with a huge amount of
> > knowledge about the industry and since I certainly don't know it all
> > (not even close), it's nice to be able to "ask" the questions instead
> > of answer them. Unless it turns into what I believe you refer to as a
> > "flame" war ? =A0Ha, ha, Seriously, I really appreciate any input or
> > discussion whether on or "off" topic.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> RMR is a good thing but if you do not back it up with service then the
> checks disapear.
> I had a couple cancelations with the economy but I knowothers who have
> gotten hit hard from it and now there in a fix becuse they depend on
> RMR

I would think RMR would not differ from any other income in this
matter. If one were to live paycheck to paycheck on a $100,000 salary,
and then get a paycut down to $50,000, they would be in trouble. But I
would find it hard to believe that someone would consider a $100,000
salary a bad thing because of this. As far as the economy and it's
relation to RMR, I would think that a slow economy would likely affect
new business more so than existing customers, meaning a service based
business relying on new customers would be more likely to feel the
slowdown than one relying on existing customers.