Re: Panel grounding

[tourman <robercampbell@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Dec 15, 7:39=A0am, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Dec 13, 11:50=A0pm, Effenpig1 <dirtyspicev...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 13, 11:33=A0pm, tourman <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 13, 11:02=A0pm, Effenpig1 <dirtyspicev...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 13, 7:13=A0pm, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Dec 13, 6:50=A0pm, Effenpig1 <dirtyspicev...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrot=
e:
>
> > > > > > On Dec 13, 6:33=A0pm, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wro=
te:
>
> > > > > > > On Dec 13, 2:49=A0pm, "Kid" <k...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > "tourman" <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>
> > > > > > > >news:b3c7c123-86b8-4de2-9c98-fbc2ee313077@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=
roups.com...
> > > > > > > > On Dec 13, 10:25 am, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> =
wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On Dec 13, 9:47 am, "Kid" <k...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > "tourman" <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>
> > > > > > > > > >news:7e9334a2-056d-4dbe-bc6c-e4ec70a81829@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx=
glegroups.com...
> > > > > > > > > > RHC: Yeah, I agree with you. I keep precise statistics =
on service
> > > > > > > > > > work. With over 1000 panels in service, I have had to r=
eplace a total
> > > > > > > > > > of 8 boards due to electrical surges damaging the panel=
 in 15 years.
> > > > > > > > > > Had I installed the Elk grounding unit for everyone, th=
at would have
> > > > > > > > > > been a cost of over $30,000 with limited payback. I pre=
fer to spend
> > > > > > > > > > the extra money on upgraded keypads and upgraded pet mo=
tions for
> > > > > > > > > > everyone, and deal with dead panels as they happen (at =
$50 a pop plus
> > > > > > > > > > cost of a service call). This with a severe lightning s=
trike problem
> > > > > > > > > > in parts of our city being a known fact as well...
>
> > > > > > > > > > BTW, two of those damaged panels were at one rural cust=
omer location,
> > > > > > > > > > and both within a week of each other. I guess the telep=
hone company
> > > > > > > > > > plant was poorly grounded. This was early on, and It to=
ok me twice to
> > > > > > > > > > learn....:((
>
> > > > > > > > > > I have a customer that had been hit twice before I put =
the elk unit on.
> > > > > > > > > > his
> > > > > > > > > > house is on a granite outcrop and he apparently can.t g=
et a very good
> > > > > > > > > > ground. on the third hit the elk unit blew out knocking=
 out the phone
> > > > > > > > > > line.
> > > > > > > > > > but the panel board was ok. all I had to do was replace=
 the elk unit.
> > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > much difference between the price of the elk unit and a=
 new board,
> > > > > > > > > > though.
> > > > > > > > > > made me wonder if it was really worth it but it was eas=
ier to replace
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > elk unit than rewire a new board. if the panel was like=
 the old moose
> > > > > > > > > > where
> > > > > > > > > > you could just pop a board on without touching the wiri=
ng I might think
> > > > > > > > > > twice.
>
> > > > > > > > > Im dealing with commercial fire and high end combo fire/b=
urg panels
> > > > > > > > > and the panels have to work its a life safety issue
> > > > > > > > > and we get plenty of lightning and high wind storms, brow=
n outs ,
> > > > > > > > > poles hit etc here in Pa. so the protection is well worth=
 it $25.00 to
> > > > > > > > > save upwards of several thousand dollars.
>
> > > > > > > > > Have customers who had direct hits and there buildings we=
re saved as
> > > > > > > > > well as vast majority of equipment was saved Vs other bui=
ldings hit
> > > > > > > > > around here that went up in flames go figure.
> > > > > > > > > It is just like the $100.00- 3 phase power protectors I i=
nstall on
> > > > > > > > > machines etc which saves thousands of dollars in motor re=
placement.
>
> > > > > > > > RHC: I don't disagree with you Nick. It's just like everyth=
ing else in
> > > > > > > > business....it's cost versus gain. Your life saving situati=
ons are
> > > > > > > > precisely where any and all protection is worth every penny=
. But for
> > > > > > > > "low end" residential systems, where every nickel spent is =
under
> > > > > > > > question by the customer, it might even "break" the sale !!=
!! It's not
> > > > > > > > cost effective in these situations to do so from any perspe=
ctive when
> > > > > > > > so few systems are affected.....
>
> > > > > > > > plus there is no quarantee when it comes to lightening. =A0=
it can just as
> > > > > > > > easily blow out the protection and the panel.
>
> > > > > > > Another reason i do not do residential.
> > > > > > > no money in it.
> > > > > > > lets see do 20 residential systems to make what i do on high =
end
> > > > > > > integrated commercial real tough one there.
>
> > > > > > I guess that depends on how you look at it. You could also spin=
 it to
> > > > > > say you could do 20 small residential systems in the same time =
it
> > > > > > takes to do one high end integrated commercial system, and coll=
ect RMR
> > > > > > from all 20 of those accounts indefinitely.
>
> > > > > > But for me the choice is easy since their is virtually no deman=
d for
> > > > > > high end commercial systems in my service area.
>
> > > > > > I have a hard time believing that you would convince any small,=
 mostly
> > > > > > residential/light commercial dealer with a decent number of acc=
ounts
> > > > > > that there is " no money in it ". =A0I guess it would all depen=
d on each
> > > > > > individuals perception how much money "no money" is.
>
> > > > > I have the advantage of not having to rely on RMR on accounts I m=
ake
> > > > > money both installs and service plus I offer services no one else=
 can
> > > > > on the integration end . Since I am cross trained in electronics =
,
> > > > > electrician and refrigeration
> > > > > I can offer some very unique designed systems.
> > > > > I could step away from alarms today and make money selling telco/=
data
> > > > > services, commercial sound /paging and intercom ,electrical/troub=
le
> > > > > shooting services and =A0electrical mechanical design services yo=
u
> > > > > should see the custom built 12/24 DC and 220/480 VAC =A0control s=
ystems
> > > > > I build for people.
> > > > > =A0and =A0never touch an alarm panel. Plus I am a Broadcast engin=
eer i
> > > > > could just work in that field full time if i wanted to.
> > > > > I was fortunate enough 30 yrs ago to see the steel mills were goi=
ng
> > > > > down around here so I went to every trade school and class i coul=
d get
> > > > > my hands on I figured this way i would always have work which was=
 a
> > > > > good thing.
> > > > > Alarms are just part of the services I can offer a customer. So I=
 do
> > > > > not go out and bid against alarm company's customers come looking=
 for
> > > > > me because the custom work I can do that no one else can. Yet idi=
ots
> > > > > around here think I am stealing work from them when it is work th=
ey
> > > > > can not do. I am not even in the phone book and do not advertise.
>
> > > > > Ask Al Colombo from SSI Magazine he has seen a lot of my stuff.
>
> > > > Well, that's great for you, BUT, the only things I have mastered so
> > > > far are tying my shoes and installing alarm systems, so I guess I'm
> > > > screwed.
>
> > > > Actually, I worked as an electrician from 18-15 and in alarm system=
s
> > > > from 25-31 so I guess I could always fall back on electrical if I h=
ad
> > > > to. But I've said it before and I'll say it again, maybe I'm an RMR
> > > > whore, but if it doesn't produce RMR I don't see the point in doing
> > > > it.
>
> > > > How did we get here from panel grounding?
>
> > > RHC: Oh, don't worry about it.... this is the norm in this newsgroup
> > > of straying off the original topic. Just about every thread goes off
> > > topic after most everything constructive has been said about the
> > > original topic; then it degenerates quickly with one or two people
> > > sniping at one or two others, and it's a downhill spiral from
> > > there.....only solution I've found is to ignore the balance of the
> > > thread after it starts to go south. You know it's definately "over"
> > > when RLB receives a shot or two.....:))
>
> > BTW, I wasn't complaining about the thread straying off topic, I enjoy
> > and legitimate discussion or stories related to the industry. I have
> > spent some time on some DIY forum and I generally answer questions,
> > not ask them. I believe there are people here with a huge amount of
> > knowledge about the industry and since I certainly don't know it all
> > (not even close), it's nice to be able to "ask" the questions instead
> > of answer them. Unless it turns into what I believe you refer to as a
> > "flame" war ? =A0Ha, ha, Seriously, I really appreciate any input or
> > discussion whether on or "off" topic.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> RMR is a good thing but if you do not back it up with service then the
> checks disapear.
> I had a couple cancelations with the economy but I knowothers who have
> gotten hit hard from it and now there in a fix becuse they depend on
> RMR

RHC: The degree of attrition due to the economy has more to do with
people simply taking a look at their ongoing expenses and deciding
their alarm monitoring is not worth what they are paying, either
because of too high a price relative to what the local market is
offering for the same thing, or because they think back to the last
time they requested service, and were not happy for whatever reason.
They may also not be using their alarm regulariy and this forces them
to decide it's an unnecessary expense. Being further restricted by a
long term commitment serves only to make them shop around a bit more
in anticipation of being able to leave after the contract is up, which
in turn doesn't allow the original company much "wiggle room" to
negotiate when the term is up. It's all about service; keep them happy
and they are far less likely to leave you when they can.

But even that situation is not all "black and white".....we'll all
lose some...that's life !