RE: Contemplating house rewiring - advice?

[Marcus Warrington <marcus.warrington@xxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Kevin,=0D
=0D
D=E2=80=99oh.. so I literally got the wrong end of that stick :) Still
soun=
ds very cheap for a switch powered by PoE, I had a Google around and could
=
find them anywhere near that price.=0D
=0D
The D-Link  injectors sound to be what I=E2=80=99m after=E2=80=A6 but I
aga=
in , I can=E2=80=99t find anything near that price range, more like
=C2=A33=
0+=0D
=0D
Yes the solar panels are doing fine thanks. This time of the year they don=
=E2=80=99t produce that much as we face the wrong direction and the sun is
=
so low in the sky, but we=E2=80=99re still generating more than the
initial=
estimate so I=E2=80=99m happy. I take it you didn=E2=80=99t get your insta=
ll in the end ?=0D
=0D
Marcus=0D
=0D
From: ukha_d@xxxxxxx [mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx] On Behalf Of K=
evin Hawkins=0D
Sent: 26 November 2012 16:18=0D
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx=0D
Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Contemplating house rewiring - advice?=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
Hi Marcus...=0D
=0D
Sorry - I didn't describe them very well ... - These =C2=A325 switches=0D
are powered by POE - i.e. like your AP - and provide one 'onward' POE=0D
output. So you need to have an existing POE source switch or=0D
injector. They're really meant to further expand each port on a=0D
central switch to 4 end ports. So one cable to a room and 4 Ethernet=0D
ports out from a small plug socket sized device. I used them in some=0D
bedrooms and the dining room and kitchen where they were I deal as I=0D
didn't run enough cabling You can also power them directly with a=0D
mains adaptor (48V) but that costs about =C2=A313 I believe and makes it=0D
less of a tidy solution=0D
=0D
D-Link make a fairly cost effective POE injector...Cheap and=0D
cheerful but true 802.3af ...and they used to be about a tenner IIRC=0D
=0D
Hope you're keeping well and that your solar panels are keeping you=0D
well charged .. although today was a really dull one here...=0D
=0D
Kevin=0D
=0D
On 26/11/2012 15:34, Marcus Warrington wrote:=0D
> =C3=98 I ended up using a lot of the 3CNJ225 100Mbps ones as they are
rea=
lly=0D
> =C3=98 cost effective if you buy carefully ~ =C2=A325 for a web
managed P=
OE powered=0D
> =C3=98 switch ! They just mount onto a standard UK single socket back
box=
and=0D
> =C3=98 provide 4 ports - one even offering POE forwarding plus the
additi=
onal RJ45=0D
> =C3=98 pass through. BTW I have some of these spare still if anyone is
in=
need of any...=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> Hi Kevin.=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> Where did you manage to find them for =C2=A325 ? I=E2=80=99ve just
bought=
a wireless access point that is POE=0D
>=0D
> compatible and at that price it=E2=80=99d be cheaper than buying an
actua=
l power injector !=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> Marcus=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> From: ukha_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ukh=
a_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>]
On Behalf Of Kevin Ha=
wkins=0D
>=0D
> Sent: 25 November 2012 12:50=0D
>=0D
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>=0D
>=0D
> Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Contemplating house rewiring - advice?=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> James, like Paul I really do recommend you star wire now if possible
as=
=0D
>=0D
> it saves so much hassle and cost later when the HA bug bites. If
done=0D
>=0D
> correctly you can easily revert a home to normal operation when you
sell=
=0D
>=0D
> , all from the consumer unit. There's a really good info on the
group=0D
>=0D
> associated website re wiring if you haven't already seen it ....=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/content/wiring-guide.html=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> Just one addition to Paul's comment below..Assuming you just star wire
1=
=0D
>=0D
> cable of twin and earth to the switch then you will not have a
problem=0D
>=0D
> if your HA switch replacement requires switched live, neutral and=0D
>=0D
> earth. Although not often encountered if you install anything that=0D
>=0D
> requires live, switched live, netural and earth then you will need
to=0D
>=0D
> install three core + earth. Some fancier switches with displays /=0D
>=0D
> indicators need this.=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> In some places where I retrofitted star wiring I compromised a
little=0D
>=0D
> by bringing 3 core + E back from each ceiling rose which
effectively=0D
>=0D
> picks up the switched live from existing switches - allowing you to=0D
>=0D
> automate but retain the existing mains switches. Even on/off
switches=0D
>=0D
> can be utilised as toggles this way. You can also revert to
standard=0D
>=0D
> wiring for when you sell, just by looping back at the consumer unit.
I=0D
>=0D
> would dearly have liked complete star wiring for all lights and
switches=
=0D
>=0D
> but in some places the consequential mess would have ensured no
family=0D
>=0D
> lineage.=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> Re CAT5 if you put that in too, which you should, then do ensure
that=0D
>=0D
> it is not run adjacent and parallel to mains wiring as this induces=0D
>=0D
> interference into the signalling. C-Bus pink CAT5 is not screened.
Try=0D
>=0D
> and cross mains/CAT5 cable runs at right angles if possible and with
as=
=0D
>=0D
> much separation as possible. You can never have enough spare CAT5
in=0D
>=0D
> a home if you get hooked on HA as it's now used for so many other
things=
=0D
>=0D
> aside from Ethernet. Run extra cables to each room, particularly if=0D
>=0D
> later access will be difficult. CAT5 isn't expensive so leave it
coiled=
=0D
>=0D
> up under floorboards or something, and label the ends. You don't
need=0D
>=0D
> mains rated CAT5 like the C-Bus pink if it's separated from mains=0D
>=0D
> wiring. In commercial buildings I believe you need Plenum sheathing=0D
>=0D
> though for fire safety compliance. Using different colours for=0D
>=0D
> functionality is always helpful e.g. identifying Ethernet, IDRANet,=0D
>=0D
> C-Bus, , EIB/KNX, audio, video, telephone, RS232/485 etc...=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> BTW Some twisted pair (e.g.CAT5) bus topologies work with star
wiring=0D
>=0D
> but some do require a single run or even a loop. This might mean=0D
>=0D
> running two CAT5 to each point - or you might get away with looping
back=
=0D
>=0D
> within the same CAT5 over small distances. In one really awkward
place=0D
>=0D
> in my home I tried to pass C-Bus and IDRANet down different pairs
within=
=0D
>=0D
> the same 25m run of CAT5 but that didn't work.=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> Increasingly endpoint devices are POE (power over Ethernet) capable
and=
=0D
>=0D
> in a home with several devices this is best serviced by one central
POE=
=0D
>=0D
> Ethernet switch and star wiring. Helps cull the wall warts- one of
my=0D
>=0D
> pet hates. If you don't have sufficient cabling available then 3COM=0D
>=0D
> / HP make some really small web managed POE network switches that can
be=
=0D
>=0D
> neatly attached to a wall to expand Ethernet ports should you need a
few=
=0D
>=0D
> extra in a particular room. . Available in 4+ port 100Mbps and
Gigabit=0D
>=0D
> versions, they also helpfully offer a pass through RJ45 for non
Ethernet=
=0D
>=0D
> (e.g. phone, C-Bus/IDRANet or AV use). I ended up using a lot of
the=0D
>=0D
> 3CNJ225 100Mbps ones as they are really cost effective if you buy=0D
>=0D
> carefully ~ =C2=A325 for a web managed POE powered switch ! They just
mou=
nt=0D
>=0D
> onto a standard UK single socket back box and provide 4 ports - one
even=
=0D
>=0D
> offering POE forwarding plus the additional RJ45 pass through. BTW
I=0D
>=0D
> have some of these spare still if anyone is in need of any...=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> K=0D
>=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> On 25/11/2012 09:49, Paul Gordon wrote:=0D
>=0D
>> Which of course is easy to reconfigure IF you star wire
everything... - =
you can just make the appropriate connections back at the consumer unit...=
=0D
>> :-)=0D
>> -----Original Message-----=0D
>> From: ukha_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:ukh=
a_d%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoo=
groups.com><mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>]
On Behalf Of James - SJ Compu=
ters=0D
>> Sent: 24 November 2012 20:09=0D
>> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:ukha_=
d%40yahoogroups.com>=0D
>> Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Contemplating house rewiring - advice?=0D
>> All lighting circuits do require a neutral (they wouldn't work if
they d=
idn't have one). A standard ceiling rose has a loop in / loop out for both
=
line and neutral.=0D
>> Standard lighting control (1/2 way / intermediate switches) don't
have a=
neutral as such. In domestic wiring you'd drop a standard bit of twin and =
earth to the switch and utilise the neural of the pair as a switched live,
=
and sheath it accordingly, of course.=0D
>> Regards=0D
>> James=0D
>> Sent from my iPhone=0D
>> On 24 Nov 2012, at 17:59, "Alan Middleton"
<yahoo@xxxxxxx<mail=
to:yahoo%40arctic-circle.org><mailto:yahoo%40arctic-circle.org>>
wrote:=0D
>>> I thought most HA lighting systems required a neutral which
isn't the n=
orm in UK lighting. If that is true (and I'm not 100% sure) I'd concider
re=
wiring with one present.=0D
>>> ----- Start Original Message -----=0D
>>> Sent: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 14:06:24 +0000=0D
>>> From: James Reed <james@xxxxxxx<mailto:james%40familyreed.org=
.uk><mailto:james%40familyreed.org.uk>>=0D
>>> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:ukha=
_d%40yahoogroups.com>=0D
>>> Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Contemplating house rewiring -
advice?=0D
>>>> Thanks Paul, this is very helpful.=0D
>>>> I can see that the star wiring may be problematic,
particulary=0D
>>>> trying to explain it all to SWMBO when there will be
higher costs etc.=
=0D
>>>> I will pursue the pink CAT5 idea as you suggest. So far as
topology=0D
>>>> goes, I guess the idea would be to terminate as much as
possible of=0D
>>>> it in a single place, but again thinking about aesthetics
could you=0D
>>>> have nodes at each floor with links between them? I read
the Idratek=
=0D
>>>> wiring guidance which seemed to suggest such a thing might
be=0D
>>>> possible. Again I want to try and put it in a way which
makes it=0D
>>>> easy for the sparks to follow as I imagine they won't have
much experi=
ence of this sort of thing.=0D
>>>> James=0D
>>>> On 24/11/2012 1:11 pm, Paul Gordon wrote:=0D
>>>>> Yup, you've answered your own question pretty well
James...=0D
>>>>> To give yourself the utmost flexibility in your future
selection=0D
>>>>> of what system to go for, if you both star-wire the
mains cable=0D
>>>>> *and* run some control cable into each backbox as
well, I think=0D
>>>>> you've pretty much allowed for any possibility.. and
even if you=0D
>>>>> end up not using one or other cable, at least you have
not limited=0D
>>>>> your options in any way, and cable is - comparatively
- cheap..=0D
>>>>> (compared the HA modules you will eventually connect
to them!)=0D
>>>>> Couple of thoughts..=0D
>>>>> Star wiring the mains isn't the "norm" in
the UK, so your sparkies=0D
>>>>> may be resistant to the idea... it will increase cable
costs -=0D
>>>>> both in that you will use more of it - the ring main
topology was=0D
>>>>> thought up to minimise the quantity of cable required
I believe, -=0D
>>>>> and I think you have to uprate the mains cable you
use... - your=0D
>>>>> sparks should know about that assuming they know their
onions...=0D
>>>>> For control cable, even though you seem to have
rejected CBUS for=0D
>>>>> now, you would still get benefit from using CBUS's
pink CAT5 cable=0D
>>>>> as your control wiring.. - it's not specific to CBUS -
it's just=0D
>>>>> bog standard CAT5 cable on the inside, - but the pink
outer sheath=0D
>>>>> is certified mains rated, so you are allowed within
the UK wiring=0D
>>>>> regs to bring that cable into the same enclosure where
mains is=0D
>>>>> present... - that is not permitted with
"ordinary"=0D
>>>>> computer CAT5 cable - which can be obtained quite a
bit cheaper...=0D
>>>>> CAT5 cable at each socket and switch backbox shoud
cate for just=0D
>>>>> about any wired HA system, although I believe there
are a few=0D
>>>>> options available that require the use of their own
proprietary=0D
>>>>> control cable.. personally I wouldn't give
consideration to any HA=0D
>>>>> system that imposes that demand, but that's just me...
- for me,=0D
>>>>> if CAT5 isn't good enough, then I'm not giving that
system my money..=
.=0D
>>>>> Paul G.=0D
>>>>> -----Original Message-----=0D
>>>>> From: ukha_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:=
ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>=0D
>>>>> [mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com><mailt=
o:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>]=0D
>>>>> On Behalf Of James Reed=0D
>>>>> Sent: 23 November 2012 20:00=0D
>>>>> To: UKHA_D Group=0D
>>>>> Subject: [ukha_d] Contemplating house rewiring -
advice?=0D
>>>>> Hi=0D
>>>>> I've just moved in to a largish victorian terrace. The
wiring is=0D
>>>>> not in good condition, and as we are planning to stay
for some=0D
>>>>> time I'm contemplating having the whole house
rewired.=0D
>>>>> I'm keen on home automation but haven't really got the
money (or=0D
>>>>> the permission from HQ!) to install all the modules
etc now. I'm=0D
>>>>> interested in a wired system such as Idratek (have
looked at Cbus=0D
>>>>> but seems too expensive by comparison).=0D
>>>>> I've got some electricians coming round, and basically
what I am=0D
>>>>> asking is what sort of wiring would I need to give me
options in=0D
>>>>> the future to add kit bit by bit? I was thinking that
I would need=0D
>>>>> control wires run along with the mains cabling for the
lights at=0D
>>>>> least - any suggestions how?=0D
>>>>> ALso should I be considering 'star wiring' of the
lighting circuits?=
=0D
>>>>> What I'm trying to balance up is making the most of
the=0D
>>>>> opportunities presented by a rewiring whilst keeping
costs as low=0D
>>>>> as I can. I'm going to have a number of years of
leisure to=0D
>>>>> install modules etc, but=0D
>>>>> (hopefully!) only one shot at the rewiring.=0D
>>>>> I'd be really interested to hear views / opinions=0D
>>>>> James=0D
>>>>> ------------------------------------=0D
>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links=0D
>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]=0D
>>>> ------------------------------------=0D
>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links=0D
>>> ----- End Original Message -----=0D
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]=0D
>> ------------------------------------=0D
>> Yahoo! Groups Links=0D
>> ------------------------------------=0D
>> Yahoo! Groups Links=0D
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]=0D
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> ------------------------------------=0D
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> Yahoo! Groups Links=0D
>=0D
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=0D


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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