RE: Contemplating house rewiring - advice?

[Marcus Warrington <marcus.warrington@xxxxxxxxxx>]

=C3=98  I ended up using a lot of the 3CNJ225 100Mbps ones as they are
real=
ly=0D
=0D
=C3=98   cost effective if you buy carefully ~ =C2=A325 for a web managed
P=
OE powered=0D
=0D
=C3=98  switch ! They just mount onto a standard UK single socket back box
=
and=0D
=0D
=C3=98  provide 4 ports - one even offering POE forwarding plus the
additio=
nal RJ45=0D
=0D
=C3=98  pass through. BTW I have some of these spare still if anyone is in
=
need of any...=0D
=0D
Hi Kevin.=0D
=0D
Where did you manage to find them for =C2=A325 ? I=E2=80=99ve just bought
a=
wireless access point that is POE=0D
compatible and at that price it=E2=80=99d be cheaper than buying an actual
=
power injector !=0D
=0D
Marcus=0D
=0D
From: ukha_d@xxxxxxx [mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx] On Behalf Of K=
evin Hawkins=0D
Sent: 25 November 2012 12:50=0D
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx=0D
Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Contemplating house rewiring - advice?=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
James, like Paul I really do recommend you star wire now if possible as=0D
it saves so much hassle and cost later when the HA bug bites. If done=0D
correctly you can easily revert a home to normal operation when you sell=0D
, all from the consumer unit. There's a really good info on the group=0D
associated website re wiring if you haven't already seen it ....=0D
=0D
http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/content/wiring-guide.html=0D
=0D
Just one addition to Paul's comment below..Assuming you just star wire 1=0D
cable of twin and earth to the switch then you will not have a problem=0D
if your HA switch replacement requires switched live, neutral and=0D
earth. Although not often encountered if you install anything that=0D
requires live, switched live, netural and earth then you will need to=0D
install three core + earth. Some fancier switches with displays /=0D
indicators need this.=0D
=0D
In some places where I retrofitted star wiring I compromised a little=0D
by bringing 3 core + E back from each ceiling rose which effectively=0D
picks up the switched live from existing switches - allowing you to=0D
automate but retain the existing mains switches. Even on/off switches=0D
can be utilised as toggles this way. You can also revert to standard=0D
wiring for when you sell, just by looping back at the consumer unit. I=0D
would dearly have liked complete star wiring for all lights and switches=0D
but in some places the consequential mess would have ensured no family=0D
lineage.=0D
=0D
Re CAT5 if you put that in too, which you should, then do ensure that=0D
it is not run adjacent and parallel to mains wiring as this induces=0D
interference into the signalling. C-Bus pink CAT5 is not screened. Try=0D
and cross mains/CAT5 cable runs at right angles if possible and with as=0D
much separation as possible. You can never have enough spare CAT5 in=0D
a home if you get hooked on HA as it's now used for so many other things=0D
aside from Ethernet. Run extra cables to each room, particularly if=0D
later access will be difficult. CAT5 isn't expensive so leave it coiled=0D
up under floorboards or something, and label the ends. You don't need=0D
mains rated CAT5 like the C-Bus pink if it's separated from mains=0D
wiring. In commercial buildings I believe you need Plenum sheathing=0D
though for fire safety compliance. Using different colours for=0D
functionality is always helpful e.g. identifying Ethernet, IDRANet,=0D
C-Bus, , EIB/KNX, audio, video, telephone, RS232/485 etc...=0D
=0D
BTW Some twisted pair (e.g.CAT5) bus topologies work with star wiring=0D
but some do require a single run or even a loop. This might mean=0D
running two CAT5 to each point - or you might get away with looping back=0D
within the same CAT5 over small distances. In one really awkward place=0D
in my home I tried to pass C-Bus and IDRANet down different pairs within=0D
the same 25m run of CAT5 but that didn't work.=0D
=0D
Increasingly endpoint devices are POE (power over Ethernet) capable and=0D
in a home with several devices this is best serviced by one central POE=0D
Ethernet switch and star wiring. Helps cull the wall warts- one of my=0D
pet hates. If you don't have sufficient cabling available then 3COM=0D
/ HP make some really small web managed POE network switches that can be=0D
neatly attached to a wall to expand Ethernet ports should you need a few=0D
extra in a particular room. . Available in 4+ port 100Mbps and Gigabit=0D
versions, they also helpfully offer a pass through RJ45 for non Ethernet=0D
(e.g. phone, C-Bus/IDRANet or AV use). I ended up using a lot of the=0D
3CNJ225 100Mbps ones as they are really cost effective if you buy=0D
carefully ~ =C2=A325 for a web managed POE powered switch ! They just
mount=
=0D
onto a standard UK single socket back box and provide 4 ports - one even=0D
offering POE forwarding plus the additional RJ45 pass through. BTW I=0D
have some of these spare still if anyone is in need of any...=0D
=0D
K=0D
=0D
On 25/11/2012 09:49, Paul Gordon wrote:=0D
> Which of course is easy to reconfigure IF you star wire everything...
- y=
ou can just make the appropriate connections back at the consumer unit...=
=0D
>=0D
> :-)=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> -----Original Message-----=0D
> From: ukha_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ukh=
a_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>]
On Behalf Of James - =
SJ Computers=0D
> Sent: 24 November 2012 20:09=0D
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>=0D
> Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Contemplating house rewiring - advice?=0D
>=0D
> All lighting circuits do require a neutral (they wouldn't work if they
di=
dn't have one). A standard ceiling rose has a loop in / loop out for both
l=
ine and neutral.=0D
>=0D
> Standard lighting control (1/2 way / intermediate switches) don't have
a =
neutral as such. In domestic wiring you'd drop a standard bit of twin and
e=
arth to the switch and utilise the neural of the pair as a switched live,
a=
nd sheath it accordingly, of course.=0D
>=0D
> Regards=0D
>=0D
> James=0D
>=0D
> Sent from my iPhone=0D
>=0D
> On 24 Nov 2012, at 17:59, "Alan Middleton"
<yahoo@xxxxxxx<mailt=
o:yahoo%40arctic-circle.org>> wrote:=0D
>=0D
>> I thought most HA lighting systems required a neutral which isn't
the no=
rm in UK lighting. If that is true (and I'm not 100% sure) I'd concider
rew=
iring with one present.=0D
>>=0D
>> ----- Start Original Message -----=0D
>> Sent: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 14:06:24 +0000=0D
>> From: James Reed <james@xxxxxxx<mailto:james%40familyreed.org.=
uk>>=0D
>> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>=0D
>> Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Contemplating house rewiring - advice?=0D
>>=0D
>>> Thanks Paul, this is very helpful.=0D
>>>=0D
>>> I can see that the star wiring may be problematic,
particulary=0D
>>> trying to explain it all to SWMBO when there will be higher
costs etc.=
=0D
>>>=0D
>>> I will pursue the pink CAT5 idea as you suggest. So far as
topology=0D
>>> goes, I guess the idea would be to terminate as much as
possible of=0D
>>> it in a single place, but again thinking about aesthetics
could you=0D
>>> have nodes at each floor with links between them? I read the
Idratek=0D
>>> wiring guidance which seemed to suggest such a thing might
be=0D
>>> possible. Again I want to try and put it in a way which makes
it=0D
>>> easy for the sparks to follow as I imagine they won't have
much experie=
nce of this sort of thing.=0D
>>>=0D
>>> James=0D
>>>=0D
>>> On 24/11/2012 1:11 pm, Paul Gordon wrote:=0D
>>>> Yup, you've answered your own question pretty well
James...=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> To give yourself the utmost flexibility in your future
selection=0D
>>>> of what system to go for, if you both star-wire the mains
cable=0D
>>>> *and* run some control cable into each backbox as well, I
think=0D
>>>> you've pretty much allowed for any possibility.. and even
if you=0D
>>>> end up not using one or other cable, at least you have not
limited=0D
>>>> your options in any way, and cable is - comparatively -
cheap..=0D
>>>> (compared the HA modules you will eventually connect to
them!)=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> Couple of thoughts..=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> Star wiring the mains isn't the "norm" in the
UK, so your sparkies=0D
>>>> may be resistant to the idea... it will increase cable
costs -=0D
>>>> both in that you will use more of it - the ring main
topology was=0D
>>>> thought up to minimise the quantity of cable required I
believe, -=0D
>>>> and I think you have to uprate the mains cable you use...
- your=0D
>>>> sparks should know about that assuming they know their
onions...=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> For control cable, even though you seem to have rejected
CBUS for=0D
>>>> now, you would still get benefit from using CBUS's pink
CAT5 cable=0D
>>>> as your control wiring.. - it's not specific to CBUS -
it's just=0D
>>>> bog standard CAT5 cable on the inside, - but the pink
outer sheath=0D
>>>> is certified mains rated, so you are allowed within the UK
wiring=0D
>>>> regs to bring that cable into the same enclosure where
mains is=0D
>>>> present... - that is not permitted with
"ordinary"=0D
>>>> computer CAT5 cable - which can be obtained quite a bit
cheaper...=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> CAT5 cable at each socket and switch backbox shoud cate
for just=0D
>>>> about any wired HA system, although I believe there are a
few=0D
>>>> options available that require the use of their own
proprietary=0D
>>>> control cable.. personally I wouldn't give consideration
to any HA=0D
>>>> system that imposes that demand, but that's just me... -
for me,=0D
>>>> if CAT5 isn't good enough, then I'm not giving that system
my money...=
=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> Paul G.=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> -----Original Message-----=0D
>>>> From: ukha_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:=
ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>=0D
>>>> [mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailt=
o:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>]=0D
>>>> On Behalf Of James Reed=0D
>>>> Sent: 23 November 2012 20:00=0D
>>>> To: UKHA_D Group=0D
>>>> Subject: [ukha_d] Contemplating house rewiring -
advice?=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> Hi=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> I've just moved in to a largish victorian terrace. The
wiring is=0D
>>>> not in good condition, and as we are planning to stay for
some=0D
>>>> time I'm contemplating having the whole house rewired.=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> I'm keen on home automation but haven't really got the
money (or=0D
>>>> the permission from HQ!) to install all the modules etc
now. I'm=0D
>>>> interested in a wired system such as Idratek (have looked
at Cbus=0D
>>>> but seems too expensive by comparison).=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> I've got some electricians coming round, and basically
what I am=0D
>>>> asking is what sort of wiring would I need to give me
options in=0D
>>>> the future to add kit bit by bit? I was thinking that I
would need=0D
>>>> control wires run along with the mains cabling for the
lights at=0D
>>>> least - any suggestions how?=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> ALso should I be considering 'star wiring' of the lighting
circuits?=
=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> What I'm trying to balance up is making the most of the=0D
>>>> opportunities presented by a rewiring whilst keeping costs
as low=0D
>>>> as I can. I'm going to have a number of years of leisure
to=0D
>>>> install modules etc, but=0D
>>>> (hopefully!) only one shot at the rewiring.=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> I'd be really interested to hear views / opinions=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> James=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> ------------------------------------=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>>=0D
>>>=0D
>>>=0D
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]=0D
>>>=0D
>>>=0D
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>>> ------------------------------------=0D
>>>=0D
>>>=0D
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links=0D
>>>=0D
>>>=0D
>>>=0D
>>>=0D
>> ----- End Original Message -----=0D
>>=0D
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]=0D
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> Yahoo! Groups Links=0D
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> ------------------------------------=0D
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> Yahoo! Groups Links=0D
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