Re: Smoke alarms (was Re: For Graham, Rober, and Coppernob)

[robertlbass@xxxxxxxxxxx]

> I don't think anyone was claiming that if they hook AC smokes to a security
> panel, it makes the panel a device that you should rely on for fire
> detection.  THAT IS WHAT THE INTERCONNECTED AC SMOKES ARE FOR!

You're missing the point.  Co9de does not care whether you think you
can reluy on the AC smokes or not.  Code says that when you connect
them to an alarm contropl panel you now have a fire alarm system and
you must do so in a manner that complies with the requirements of a
fire alarm system.  If you want to do something in your own home that
is non-compliant that is your business.  You seem to understand the
limitations of what you're doing and I have always advocated consumesrs
taking responsibility for their own systems.  No problem.

The point is that it is not code compliant and I expained why.  For the
sake of other readers who may not have the same level of knowledge it
is important to point out that the connection is not compliant and that
the resultant integrated system can not be relied upon *as a system*
due to its inherant weaknesses.  You can certinly connect the AC smokes
to your system, as long as you understand what you're doing.  That does
not, however, mean that it is code compliant.

Others should be forwarned that doing things in the manner Olson
suggests can lead to an inspector refusing to grant the certificate of
occupancy (C.O.), significant expense in rewiring and replacing
components if the permit was granted based in part upon the plan for a
fire alarm system, possiuble failure to report a fire if the power goes
out, etc.  If you understand the risks and are willing to accept them,
no problem.  It's your home and your decision.

Personal note: The above is not meant to condescend in any way so
please don't take it that way.  I'm only trying to say that I believe
it is your right and your responsibility to make your own choices about
your security system.

> Now, if an installer claimed that by using a relay the system will always
> properly respond to a fire, I see your point...

Coreect.  However, this is not a private chat but an open newsgroup
where numerous people come seeking advice and support for DIY projects.
 As such, I think we would do them a disservice if we did not point out
weaknesses along with advantages of anything we discuss, particularly
where it concerns fire alarms.  Can we agree on that much.

I realise that these relays make for a convenient, inexpensive means of
integrating existing 110VAC smokes to an alarm or automation panel.
Frankly, I could sell more systems if I advocated using them.  I choose
not to recommend them because I believe in offering what I consider
more reliable coverage.

> But, as in my personal case, I am fully aware that my
> security panel is not a primary fire alarm system.  Period.

I don't disagree with your personal decision.  It is, in the final
analysis, your decision and yours alone.  I only debate the use of
these devices because others who read this thread need to understand
(as you do) that there are risks in using them and (I'm not sure you
realise it but I can assure you it is true) that using them in the
manner described is not code compliant.

As to Olson, he knows I'm right, too, but he'd argue with me over
whether the sun shines in the Sahara.  That has nothing to do with
facts.  It's a long-standing personal vendetta.  'Nuff said?  :^)

> Ok Robert -- you keep on harping that anything connected
> to an AC smoke alarm automatically makes it part of a fire
> alarm system...

That i snot what I said at all.  I will repeat it.  When you connect
smoke detectors or, for that matter, any kind of fire detection devices
to an alarm system panel, that system becomes a fire alarm system.  For
example, you can legally connect an auxiliary relay to a smoke detector
to release magnetic door holders.  I've done this plenty of times.
Another use of an auxi;iary ort add-on relay is to shut down an air
handler to prevent the spread of smoke.  This is most commonly done
using duct smoke detectors.  Neither of these examples, by itself,
would turn integrated smoke detectors into a fire alarm system.

> Your argument ONLY holds water if that is true.  Care to
> quote the relevent code that states that?

I already have, but the code applies to what I said above, not what you
thought I was saying.

> Frank has quoted (multiple times) the code that says
> it is within code to make such a connection (and it
> doesn't automatically make it a "fire alarm system").

Wrong.  Olson has quoted out of context a snippet of code but has
deliberately ignored the part of code which applies here.  Don't let
him mislead you into believing that your system is code compliant.

> So the ball's back in your court, Robert.  It's totally up to
> you to see if you can return it...

For me this isn't a game, Kurt.  I believe I have answered your
questions.  I'm not interested in engaging in some sort of contest.

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Home Electronics
The DIY Home Automation Store
www.BassBurglarAlarms.com