Re: Smoke alarms (was Re: For Graham, Rober, and Coppernob)

[Frank Olson <Use_the_email_links@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

robertlbass@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> Someone using an alias intended to imply he's a fire alarm technician
> wrote:
>
>
>>First of all, I don't see "Mr. Olson" "advocating" for anything
>>but "doing it right"...
>
>
> If you consider installing unsupervised smoke detectors into an alarm
> system (which is contrary to code) "doing it right", I can understand
> why you would say that.  If you don't mind that the system won't
> respond to a fire if the AC power goes out, go right ahead and advocate
> such "rightness".

"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7  Installations that include the connection of
single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices,
such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices,
phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull
stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of
the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent
normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."

Care to point out the relevant code which states you *can't* hook up an
AC smoke alarm to an burg/security panel?  Care to point out the
relevant code which states that connecting a smoke alarm (or detector)
to a burg/security panel makes it a fire alarm system?

Please don't use the definition of a "fire alarm system" as a basis for
any reply.  It doesn't qualify.

While you're at it, care to point out the relevant code which would
allow an installer to circumvent the primary incoming telephone line
with a relay so that the fire alarm communicator "tests" on the second
line?  And of course, the other "classic" where you set up a six line
call display unit and interrupted communication on a UL Listed CS
receiver for non-paying clients.




>
>
>>He's simply pointing out that NFPA does allow interconnection
>>of smoke alarms to a home security system...
>
>
> No, that is not "simply" what he is pointing out.  He is "simply"
> advocating using an unacceptable means of wiring smoke detectors to an
> alarm control panel -- a means that will not pass inspection and may
> cause an unsuspecting DIYer to suffer unnecessary expense should they
> follow his "simple" ideas.

"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7  Installations that include the connection of
single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices,
such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices,
phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull
stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of
the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent
normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."



>
>
>>I've read his original response...
>
>
> How nice.
>
>
>>and followed this thread with interest.  Your whole argument
>>hinges on an interpretation of code that no AHJ (in his right
>>mind) would support...
>
>
> Actually, I pointed out that code requires that the devices used in a
> fire alarm system must be listed for the purpose.  I also pointed out
> that the device he advocates using does not comply with NFPA72
> requirements for connecting smoke detectors to an alarm control panel.
> Perhaps you know of a sane AHJ who agrees with you and Mr. Olson that
> an alarm system with connected smoke detectors isn't a fire alarm and
> that it isn't required to comply with code.

"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7  Installations that include the connection of
single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices,
such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices,
phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull
stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of
the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent
normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."


>
>
>>There is nothing in any North American code...
>
>
> There is no North American Code.  There is NFPA72 and NFPA70 (aka NEC).

Heh...  By "North American" I'm pretty sure he meant "Canadian" and
"American" Codes and Standards.


>
>
>>or standard that would prohibit someone from interconnecting
>>their smoke alarms to an auto dialler or home security system.
>
>
> I didn't discuss auto-dialers.  The code does not refer to "home
> security systems".  It does, however, require that smoke detectors and
> all of the wiring to them, when connected to an alarm system, be
> supervised.  Care to explain how one can supervise the 110VAC wiring
> and the 110VAC smokes connected with this relay?

"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7  Installations that include the connection of
single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices,
such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices,
phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull
stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of
the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent
normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."


>
>
>>All I see is that _you're_ the one "ignoring" plain facts...
>
>
> Kindly explain away the plain fact that the deivce with which Mr. Olson
> and you seem so enamored can be supervised.  Please state the plain
> fact about how it will function during a power interruption.

"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7  Installations that include the connection of
single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices,
such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices,
phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull
stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of
the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent
normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."


>
>
>>"Mr. Olson" recommended against using AC smoke alarms
>>in one of his very first responses...
>
>
> He also _wrongly_ claimed that it's perfectly ok to use them with an
> alarm panel.  He also _wrongly_ claimed that DIY fire alarms are not
> legally fire alarms.  He also _wrongly_ claimed that he has some idea
> what he's talking about.

"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7  Installations that include the connection of
single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices,
such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices,
phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull
stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of
the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent
normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."


>
>
>>"Mr. Olson" provided the relevent text from the very "code"...
>
>
> He provided a snippet of code while ignoring the tenor of code which
> clearly states that he's wrong.

"Snippet?"  I don't think a whole paragraph of code which clearly states
it's acceptable to interconnect AC smoke alarms to an alarm panel or
auto dialer is a "snippet".  At what's with the "tenor".  I thought you
were "bass".


>
>
>>you keep waving in front of everyone that supports his argument...
>
>
> Um, this is USENET -- not TV.  It's a text medium.

Here's some more text:

"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7  Installations that include the connection of
single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices,
such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices,
phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull
stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of
the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent
normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."


>
>
>>yet you continue to cling to rhetoric that's unsubstantiated and
>>appears to spring from your own "personal animus"...
>
>
> I cited code which controverts Mr. Olson's and your position.  Your
> turn.  :)

You haven't cited *one* paragraph from code other than a definition
which you've based your entire argument on.  Show me where a home alarm
system becomes a listed fire alarm system when you connect a heat
detector (or smoke alarm) to it.  POST THE RELEVANT CODE!!!

Are you saying NFPA actually contradicts itself???

"NFPA 72-2002 11.7.6.7  Installations that include the connection of
single- or multiple-station alarms with other input or output devices,
such as but not limited to relay modules, remote signaling devices,
phone dialers, security panels, heat detectors, and manual pull
stations, shall be permitted, providing that an open or short circuit of
the wiring leading to these input or output devices does not prevent
normal operation of the single- or multiple-station alarm."