Re: I think they've done it again.

[nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxx (Dave Houston)]

There are a few points that really confuse the issue.

Some have reported flickering while others have indicated the lights flash
full on/off, even wiping out bulbs.

Some have reported experiencing it only when some Insteon device is at a
certain level.

Some Insteon devices (in the same installation) are affected while others
are not. Similarly, some X-10 devices (in the same installation) are
affected while others are not.

Triac noise should be present during each half cycle (You can see it on a
scope from all of the X-10 dimmers that are active.) but this phenomena
seems to occur only when Insteon control signals are being sent.

Insteon control signals have about the same amplitude as X-10 control
signals. They are at 131.65kHz. If they were the cause, I would think that
all X-10 lamp modules and switches would have been affected from Day 1. The
problem is also affecting some Insteon units which should not be confused by
any early phantom zero crossing (even if set for X-10).

There are chokes in all X-10 dimmers that attenuate the triac noise. It
appears there are similar chokes in Insteon dimmers (at least in the one
LampLinc V2 that I opened).

Perhaps there's a path being opened during the Insteon signal transmission
that allows triac noise onto the mains.

The transmitters in controllers that send the Insteon signals have no triacs
but all of the Insteon units are two way and both repeat Insteon control
messages as well as send acknowledgements.

I would really like to see oscilloscope screenshots of the mains in a system
where this is occuring.

Smarthome says it's due to a faulty component in the switches and that
getting a "fix" out to users is complicated by the need for ETL (competitor
to UL) certification.

"Jeff Volp" <JeffVolp@xxxxxxx> wrote:

>Since Insteon starts sending data BEFORE the actual zero crossing, I suspect
>that dimmers using the zero crossing as a time reference may be confused by
>the Insteon signal.  That would cause the triac phase to be modulated by how
>early that erroneous zero crossing is detected.  At full intensity, the
>triac should be triggered right after the real zero crossing.  If the
>Insteon signal causes the triac to be turned on early, it would switch off
>at the real zero crossing, and miss conduction for the next half cycle.
>Similarly, dimmed lights would change intensity in response to any shifting
>trigger phase delay.
>
>Since X10 sends its data after the zero crossing, dimmers that use zero
>crossing as a time reference would be unaffected by X10 data.
>
>There are reports of dimmers made by other manufacturers being effected, so
>this may be a nasty problem to resolve.
>
>Jeff
>
>"Dave Houston" <nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>news:4496d9fc.206904843@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> As for trying to reconcile the reports, that's what I was alluding to when
>I
>> said some reports may be due to user inexperience or ineptitude. However,
>> there have been reports from someone who is neither inexperienced nor
>inept
>> that some X-10 dimmers are flickering during Insteon events. I think the
>> most likely culprit is excessive triac noise getting to the mains from the
>> Insteon dimmers. That could also explain the Lutron dimmer report.
>>
>> It really seems improbable that Insteon, X-10 & Lutron devices would all
>> flicker in some reaction to the low level Insteon control signals.
>>
>> Also, I'm not really losing confidence in Insteon. I still think the
>concept
>> is sound. I think the problem is one of too much haste in introducing new
>> devices and maybe cost cutting in component choices. The demand has been
>> high for new devices
>