Re: INSTEON: Let the recalls begin ...

["BruceR" <br@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Insteon is still new and bugs are sure to appear. Had it not been for
the availability of the now discontinued X10 translator (2414X) I
wouldn't have jumped in. However, the X10 installation was getting
progressively worse to the point where my wife was getting annoyed with
it and my testing of UPB proved to be less than a reliable option.  I
ended up getting in on a developer's special from Smarthome which made
completion of the conversion an offer too good to pass up.

 Things have actually settled down to where, except fro running macros,
things are fairly stable now. The mysterious "reprogramming" corrected
itself and the flickering is a rare occurrence contained to just a few
loads. IOW, even without RoZetta (a "true" X10 translator) things are
actually better than the pre-Insteon X10 installation.

I concede that others may have more inconvenience or even costs in
replacing a houseful of modules but growing pains are there with any new
technology. As far as electrocuting oneself, hot wiring is neither good
for the heart OR the modules. ALWAYS kill the breaker on the circuit
you're working on - (do as I say, not as I do!).  They do warn you to
kill the power so I'm not sure they'd be held liable for someone not
following instructions.  BTW, they DO claim to have ETL approval.




> "BruceR" <br@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>
>>>> Well, as they say, "You can tell the Pioneers by the arrows in
>>>> their
>>>>>
>>> backs!"  We do seem to be getting our share of arrows but the
>>>> overall  benefits will probably be worthwhile.
>>>
>>> What would those overall benefits be?
>>
>> The primary benefit is signal reliability. I've been working with X10
>> stuff for 22 years and know the tricks and tips to signal reliability
>> but there are areas in my house that are just not supportable with
>> X10 - even with an XTB and/or repeaters and filters - and, of
>> course, even when it does work it may change.  Insteon signals are
>> reliable and reach every square inch of my house.  I think that
>> after I replace the 2414X with the RoZetta my experience will be
>> much better.
>
> I am surprised that you never figured out what was blackholing your
> X-10 signal.  If anyone's got the tools and know-how, it's you.  I'll
> also admit that in a larger house, I might be singing a different
> tune about X-10.  But I'm happy being coupled through the utility
> pole.  With the XTB, I reach ever corner.  If that weren't true, I'd
> be more inclined to experiment with Insteon.  The only issue left is
> the many Maxi and minicontrollers I have. Equipping them all with
> XTB's is not practical.  I might be able to solve it by running a
> 110VAC signaling circuit through the house that allows multiple
> controllers to share a smaller number of XTB's.  It's not very
> elegant, though.
>
> I recall that you had mysterious delink and relink problems in the
> worst SAF place in the house - the kitchen.  Until you run that to
> ground, I would have to put a question mark next to "signal
> reliability" since it would be a real issue in my house to screw up
> the kitchen lights.  Maybe that should come under some other heading,
> but it really makes me nervous when devices reprogram themselves.
>
> It makes me even more nervous when it's Switchlincs that are doing it
> because they already have a reputation for losing their address
> settings. This is another issue where I feel complexity is the enemy
> of reliability. I've never had a codewheel reset itself to a
> different house or unit code.
>
>>>> If I were paying an electrician to change these things I'd be
>>>> pissed but, as you point out, our time is worth nothing (unless
>>>> somebody else is willing to pay for it).  Even if I have to replace
>>>> everything, I can do it all in a day -
>>>
>>> But as my econ prof said "Wouldn't you rather be doing something
>>> else you *wanted* to do that day?"
>>
>> Sure, but it's an inconvenience rather than a dollar cost. I'm not
>> going to pass up doing something better to do the job but instead do
>> it when I'd normally be doing nothing more than staring at the the
>> tube.  It's not like a plumbing leak that has to be fixed right this
>> minute.
>
> You retired guys.  There's no weekend in the forseeable future where
> I would trade jackassing wall switches in and out for anything other
> than root canal work or an IRS audit.  Isn't it reasonable to assume
> that at least some others have a greater "switch jackassing" cost
> than you?  Some might have hired electricians, some might have traded
> favors with friends or BIL's for help and some might break off wires
> close to the wall and really get fu(ked.
>
>>> Lost opportunity costs are hard to
>>> see, but they're there.  If SmartHome had to pay the full freight of
>>> the SwitchLinc recall (electricians, lost time, potential home
>>> wiring damage) their bottom line would be bathed in red ink.  I
>>> don't know what their warranty says, but I'm betting they went to
>>> great pains to exclude liability for true recall costs.   The
>>> trouble is that in some states, you can exclude whatever you want
>>> but the courts have the final say whether those exclusions are
>>> sustainable.  My guess is that in consumer-friendly California,
>>> Smarthome's at risk.
>>
>> I think that, like most limited warranties, the remedy is to return
>> the unit for repair or replacement with no manufacturer liability for
>> installation, removal or shipping. That will hold up in most states
>> - > even California.
>
> All depends on state laws and case circumstances.  I'll admit it
> would be hard to get electrician's fees out of them, but in many
> product liability cases enterprising lawyers get hold of a smoking
> gun (the IBM/Hitachi HD class action suit, for one) that implicates
> the company in negligent behavior.  That case centered on company
> emails that showed IBM/Hitachi shipped drives that they knew to be
> bad.  Buyers of said drives often suffered serious consequential
> damages.
>
> If I have been following the threads correctly, there's real reason to
> believe that Smarthome is continuing to ship switches they have a
> fairly substantial reason to believe are defective.  Usually it's not
> until someone got fired or PO'ed at the company that such a leaked
> memo appears. Concealment was an issue in the Big Tobacco suits -
> they KNEW smoking was bad, and they continued to pump cigarettes out
> the door while working very hard to conceal the scientific proof.
>
> If the vendor behaves badly, the limited warranty won't exclude
> consequential damages in a number of states, of which I believe
> California is one.  Then there are other states where jurors can
> decide not only the facts of a case, but the law as well.  All bets
> are off in those states although judges rarely tell jurors of the
> awesome powers they possess. There's an interesting article here:
>
> http://www.truthinjustice.org/informed.htm
>
> I'll just say that if there's proof that they knew they were shipping
> bad switches and some poor schmoe electrocutes himself swapping out
> two dozen "known bad" switches when he might never have bought them
> had he known of the defect, I would bet on the poor schmoe's estate
> and lawyer to recover substantial sums.  That seems only reasonable
> to me, but then I'm very strongly pro-consumer.  When I owned a
> business, it was another story! :-)
>
>>> If it's  like any other industry, they'll settle up with the
>>> complainants that have threatened legal action and those
>>> consumers will get a much  better deal than most because
>>> I am sure Insteon is desperate to avoid a court case over
>>> the SwitchLincs.  Why?  Well, if they lose, it  might set a
>>> precedent for them having to pay those true costs for all
>>> the other Insteon users affected by the flicker problem.
>>>
>>> Civil cases often focus on what it makes to make the plaintiff
>>> "whole" again.  In this case, that might easily include the cost
>>> of jacking out all the Insteon switches and replacing them with
>>> what was there before.  It could easily become worse if some
>>> former Insteon employee  releases embarrassing documents to
>>> the web (as has happened with other company's product
>>> liability suits) that make their way into litigation.
>>
>> I doubt anybody's going to sue. The damages are just not great
>> enough to warrant the costs and effort and Smarthome is doing
>> everything they've promised in their warranty.
>
> Dude.  People sue just for fun.  You owned a business so you must
> have run into the suit-happy customer.  If not, you were very, very
> lucky.  If someone paid an electrician to install the switches, and
> there were a lot of switches, you're talking about damages that will
> get you into virtually any US state's small claims court, some
> circuit courts and any TV court on the air, except, maybe, Divorce
> Court or Animal Court.  I'll bet you could solicit testimony from the
> wives of any HA enthusiast about the pain and suffering involved in a
> malfunction lighting system that might even get you on Divorce Court!
> :-)  I'd never consider myself suit-proof just based on a small
> dollar figure.  I've been sued for under $1000.  I'm sure I am not
> alone.  All it takes is a highly pissed off plaintiff and a filing
> fee.
>
> Speaking much more seriously, the wife of a (hypothetical, AFAIK) man
> who was killed replacing switches would have a hell of wrongful death
> case. Especially if it could be proved that replacing the switches
> was very likely outcome of Smarthome's decision to continue selling
> the switches even after the defect was revealed.  I doubt they could
> convince a jury that the replacement wasn't an inevitable outcome.
> If I ever get near a Lexis terminal again, I'll look to see if
> anyone's filed.  These kinds of recalls almost always involve at
> least the filing of suits, if not prolonged litigation.
>
> There were some mighty PO'ed sounding people on one of the forums I
> looked at and I'll bet some of them consider a lost weekend a big
> issue.  It may be that anyone who's bought switches after the problem
> became publicly known is entitled to more than a straight-up refund
> since Smarthome knew of the defect but continued to sell the items in
> question.  I don't recall them posting "If you intend to run loads at
> half dim" (or whatever the conditions were that caused flickering)
> "please wait until the next revision" in their ads.  The certainly
> could have made some sort of disclaimer I am not aware of at purchase
> time.
>
> Not seeking "informed consent" may very cleanly negate their
> disclaimer of consequential damages because they've already
> acknowledged the problem but apparently are continuing to sell the
> old, 'known bad' switches.  They can't have passed ETL muster yet,
> can they?   Hmmm.  I wouldn't want to be them right now.
>
> I think for them to be suit-proof, they would have had to stop sales
> or in the very least clearly detail the problem as best they knew it
> to potential buyers.  It doesn't seem as if they've done either,
> although I am sure their lawyer will point to their message board
> (and maybe even this thread!) as their disclaimer and notification.
> I suspect a jury would find that information should have been more
> prominently displayed, probably in the advertisements themselves.
>
> I'm really surprised they didn't stop selling the switches,
> particularly when I think about the potential legal issues.  I'll bet
> there were a least a couple of big meetings at HQ on the subject.  If
> there's a wrongful death claim, those minutes will be subpoenaed in
> discovery.  If those minutes or relevant emails say something dumb
> like "we knew that 2% of the end users would suffer this problem"
> then they've loaded and cocked the smoking gun. If they knew that
> someone was going to suffer as a result of their deliberate actions,
> then they're likely going to called on to make that 2% whole.
>
> While I do agree with you that lone plaintiffs would have very little
> $ incentive to sue, the worst thing that could happen to Smarthome
> now is for a class action attorney to get wind of the recall.  That's
> when the relatively small, 'unprofitable to litigate' claims whose
> small size had served to insulate them from legal action suddenly
> take on very serious proportions.  Sadly, the CA lawyers will get at
> least $250K in legal fees and consumers like you will get a $5 to $50
> coupon for more of the same product!
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if some (probably more than one!) class action
> attorney scours Google Groups every day for the term "Class action
> lawsuit" or "product liability" and is already aiming an action at
> Smarthome.  The kicker is how many they've sold.  It's probably not
> even enough to entice a hungry class action lawyer.
>
>>> I salute you, brave pioneer, but I wouldn't want to BE you! :-)
>>
>> Oh, it's not so bad being me!
>>>
>>> Oh, and the trick to the arrows is to break off the fletching and
>>> push the arrow THROUGH the wound.
>
> Important Revision to Arrow Wound Instructions 1A:
>
> Leave the arrow in unless it's poisoned-tip, was previously a
> wriggling snake in the hands of Thulsa Doom or it happens to be on
> fire!