Re: INSTEON: Let the recalls begin ...

[nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxx (Dave Houston)]

You'll be happy to know that Electronic House Publishing has chosen
HouseLinc Desktop software as "one of their favorite products". ;-)

"BruceR" <br@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>Insteon is still new and bugs are sure to appear. Had it not been for
>the availability of the now discontinued X10 translator (2414X) I
>wouldn't have jumped in. However, the X10 installation was getting
>progressively worse to the point where my wife was getting annoyed with
>it and my testing of UPB proved to be less than a reliable option.  I
>ended up getting in on a developer's special from Smarthome which made
>completion of the conversion an offer too good to pass up.
>
> Things have actually settled down to where, except fro running macros,
>things are fairly stable now. The mysterious "reprogramming" corrected
>itself and the flickering is a rare occurrence contained to just a few
>loads. IOW, even without RoZetta (a "true" X10 translator) things are
>actually better than the pre-Insteon X10 installation.
>
>I concede that others may have more inconvenience or even costs in
>replacing a houseful of modules but growing pains are there with any new
>technology. As far as electrocuting oneself, hot wiring is neither good
>for the heart OR the modules. ALWAYS kill the breaker on the circuit
>you're working on - (do as I say, not as I do!).  They do warn you to
>kill the power so I'm not sure they'd be held liable for someone not
>following instructions.  BTW, they DO claim to have ETL approval.
>
>
>
>
>> "BruceR" <br@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>
>>>>> Well, as they say, "You can tell the Pioneers by the arrows in
>>>>> their
>>>>>>
>>>> backs!"  We do seem to be getting our share of arrows but the
>>>>> overall  benefits will probably be worthwhile.
>>>>
>>>> What would those overall benefits be?
>>>
>>> The primary benefit is signal reliability. I've been working with X10
>>> stuff for 22 years and know the tricks and tips to signal reliability
>>> but there are areas in my house that are just not supportable with
>>> X10 - even with an XTB and/or repeaters and filters - and, of
>>> course, even when it does work it may change.  Insteon signals are
>>> reliable and reach every square inch of my house.  I think that
>>> after I replace the 2414X with the RoZetta my experience will be
>>> much better.
>>
>> I am surprised that you never figured out what was blackholing your
>> X-10 signal.  If anyone's got the tools and know-how, it's you.  I'll
>> also admit that in a larger house, I might be singing a different
>> tune about X-10.  But I'm happy being coupled through the utility
>> pole.  With the XTB, I reach ever corner.  If that weren't true, I'd
>> be more inclined to experiment with Insteon.  The only issue left is
>> the many Maxi and minicontrollers I have. Equipping them all with
>> XTB's is not practical.  I might be able to solve it by running a
>> 110VAC signaling circuit through the house that allows multiple
>> controllers to share a smaller number of XTB's.  It's not very
>> elegant, though.
>>
>> I recall that you had mysterious delink and relink problems in the
>> worst SAF place in the house - the kitchen.  Until you run that to
>> ground, I would have to put a question mark next to "signal
>> reliability" since it would be a real issue in my house to screw up
>> the kitchen lights.  Maybe that should come under some other heading,
>> but it really makes me nervous when devices reprogram themselves.
>>
>> It makes me even more nervous when it's Switchlincs that are doing it
>> because they already have a reputation for losing their address
>> settings. This is another issue where I feel complexity is the enemy
>> of reliability. I've never had a codewheel reset itself to a
>> different house or unit code.
>>
>>>>> If I were paying an electrician to change these things I'd be
>>>>> pissed but, as you point out, our time is worth nothing (unless
>>>>> somebody else is willing to pay for it).  Even if I have to replace
>>>>> everything, I can do it all in a day -
>>>>
>>>> But as my econ prof said "Wouldn't you rather be doing something
>>>> else you *wanted* to do that day?"
>>>
>>> Sure, but it's an inconvenience rather than a dollar cost. I'm not
>>> going to pass up doing something better to do the job but instead do
>>> it when I'd normally be doing nothing more than staring at the the
>>> tube.  It's not like a plumbing leak that has to be fixed right this
>>> minute.
>>
>> You retired guys.  There's no weekend in the forseeable future where
>> I would trade jackassing wall switches in and out for anything other
>> than root canal work or an IRS audit.  Isn't it reasonable to assume
>> that at least some others have a greater "switch jackassing" cost
>> than you?  Some might have hired electricians, some might have traded
>> favors with friends or BIL's for help and some might break off wires
>> close to the wall and really get fu(ked.
>>
>>>> Lost opportunity costs are hard to
>>>> see, but they're there.  If SmartHome had to pay the full freight of
>>>> the SwitchLinc recall (electricians, lost time, potential home
>>>> wiring damage) their bottom line would be bathed in red ink.  I
>>>> don't know what their warranty says, but I'm betting they went to
>>>> great pains to exclude liability for true recall costs.   The
>>>> trouble is that in some states, you can exclude whatever you want
>>>> but the courts have the final say whether those exclusions are
>>>> sustainable.  My guess is that in consumer-friendly California,
>>>> Smarthome's at risk.
>>>
>>> I think that, like most limited warranties, the remedy is to return
>>> the unit for repair or replacement with no manufacturer liability for
>>> installation, removal or shipping. That will hold up in most states
>>> - > even California.
>>
>> All depends on state laws and case circumstances.  I'll admit it
>> would be hard to get electrician's fees out of them, but in many
>> product liability cases enterprising lawyers get hold of a smoking
>> gun (the IBM/Hitachi HD class action suit, for one) that implicates
>> the company in negligent behavior.  That case centered on company
>> emails that showed IBM/Hitachi shipped drives that they knew to be
>> bad.  Buyers of said drives often suffered serious consequential
>> damages.
>>
>> If I have been following the threads correctly, there's real reason to
>> believe that Smarthome is continuing to ship switches they have a
>> fairly substantial reason to believe are defective.  Usually it's not
>> until someone got fired or PO'ed at the company that such a leaked
>> memo appears. Concealment was an issue in the Big Tobacco suits -
>> they KNEW smoking was bad, and they continued to pump cigarettes out
>> the door while working very hard to conceal the scientific proof.
>>
>> If the vendor behaves badly, the limited warranty won't exclude
>> consequential damages in a number of states, of which I believe
>> California is one.  Then there are other states where jurors can
>> decide not only the facts of a case, but the law as well.  All bets
>> are off in those states although judges rarely tell jurors of the
>> awesome powers they possess. There's an interesting article here:
>>
>> http://www.truthinjustice.org/informed.htm
>>
>> I'll just say that if there's proof that they knew they were shipping
>> bad switches and some poor schmoe electrocutes himself swapping out
>> two dozen "known bad" switches when he might never have bought them
>> had he known of the defect, I would bet on the poor schmoe's estate
>> and lawyer to recover substantial sums.  That seems only reasonable
>> to me, but then I'm very strongly pro-consumer.  When I owned a
>> business, it was another story! :-)
>>
>>>> If it's  like any other industry, they'll settle up with the
>>>> complainants that have threatened legal action and those
>>>> consumers will get a much  better deal than most because
>>>> I am sure Insteon is desperate to avoid a court case over
>>>> the SwitchLincs.  Why?  Well, if they lose, it  might set a
>>>> precedent for them having to pay those true costs for all
>>>> the other Insteon users affected by the flicker problem.
>>>>
>>>> Civil cases often focus on what it makes to make the plaintiff
>>>> "whole" again.  In this case, that might easily include the cost
>>>> of jacking out all the Insteon switches and replacing them with
>>>> what was there before.  It could easily become worse if some
>>>> former Insteon employee  releases embarrassing documents to
>>>> the web (as has happened with other company's product
>>>> liability suits) that make their way into litigation.
>>>
>>> I doubt anybody's going to sue. The damages are just not great
>>> enough to warrant the costs and effort and Smarthome is doing
>>> everything they've promised in their warranty.
>>
>> Dude.  People sue just for fun.  You owned a business so you must
>> have run into the suit-happy customer.  If not, you were very, very
>> lucky.  If someone paid an electrician to install the switches, and
>> there were a lot of switches, you're talking about damages that will
>> get you into virtually any US state's small claims court, some
>> circuit courts and any TV court on the air, except, maybe, Divorce
>> Court or Animal Court.  I'll bet you could solicit testimony from the
>> wives of any HA enthusiast about the pain and suffering involved in a
>> malfunction lighting system that might even get you on Divorce Court!
>> :-)  I'd never consider myself suit-proof just based on a small
>> dollar figure.  I've been sued for under $1000.  I'm sure I am not
>> alone.  All it takes is a highly pissed off plaintiff and a filing
>> fee.
>>
>> Speaking much more seriously, the wife of a (hypothetical, AFAIK) man
>> who was killed replacing switches would have a hell of wrongful death
>> case. Especially if it could be proved that replacing the switches
>> was very likely outcome of Smarthome's decision to continue selling
>> the switches even after the defect was revealed.  I doubt they could
>> convince a jury that the replacement wasn't an inevitable outcome.
>> If I ever get near a Lexis terminal again, I'll look to see if
>> anyone's filed.  These kinds of recalls almost always involve at
>> least the filing of suits, if not prolonged litigation.
>>
>> There were some mighty PO'ed sounding people on one of the forums I
>> looked at and I'll bet some of them consider a lost weekend a big
>> issue.  It may be that anyone who's bought switches after the problem
>> became publicly known is entitled to more than a straight-up refund
>> since Smarthome knew of the defect but continued to sell the items in
>> question.  I don't recall them posting "If you intend to run loads at
>> half dim" (or whatever the conditions were that caused flickering)
>> "please wait until the next revision" in their ads.  The certainly
>> could have made some sort of disclaimer I am not aware of at purchase
>> time.
>>
>> Not seeking "informed consent" may very cleanly negate their
>> disclaimer of consequential damages because they've already
>> acknowledged the problem but apparently are continuing to sell the
>> old, 'known bad' switches.  They can't have passed ETL muster yet,
>> can they?   Hmmm.  I wouldn't want to be them right now.
>>
>> I think for them to be suit-proof, they would have had to stop sales
>> or in the very least clearly detail the problem as best they knew it
>> to potential buyers.  It doesn't seem as if they've done either,
>> although I am sure their lawyer will point to their message board
>> (and maybe even this thread!) as their disclaimer and notification.
>> I suspect a jury would find that information should have been more
>> prominently displayed, probably in the advertisements themselves.
>>
>> I'm really surprised they didn't stop selling the switches,
>> particularly when I think about the potential legal issues.  I'll bet
>> there were a least a couple of big meetings at HQ on the subject.  If
>> there's a wrongful death claim, those minutes will be subpoenaed in
>> discovery.  If those minutes or relevant emails say something dumb
>> like "we knew that 2% of the end users would suffer this problem"
>> then they've loaded and cocked the smoking gun. If they knew that
>> someone was going to suffer as a result of their deliberate actions,
>> then they're likely going to called on to make that 2% whole.
>>
>> While I do agree with you that lone plaintiffs would have very little
>> $ incentive to sue, the worst thing that could happen to Smarthome
>> now is for a class action attorney to get wind of the recall.  That's
>> when the relatively small, 'unprofitable to litigate' claims whose
>> small size had served to insulate them from legal action suddenly
>> take on very serious proportions.  Sadly, the CA lawyers will get at
>> least $250K in legal fees and consumers like you will get a $5 to $50
>> coupon for more of the same product!
>>
>> I wouldn't be surprised if some (probably more than one!) class action
>> attorney scours Google Groups every day for the term "Class action
>> lawsuit" or "product liability" and is already aiming an action at
>> Smarthome.  The kicker is how many they've sold.  It's probably not
>> even enough to entice a hungry class action lawyer.
>>
>>>> I salute you, brave pioneer, but I wouldn't want to BE you! :-)
>>>
>>> Oh, it's not so bad being me!
>>>>
>>>> Oh, and the trick to the arrows is to break off the fletching and
>>>> push the arrow THROUGH the wound.
>>
>> Important Revision to Arrow Wound Instructions 1A:
>>
>> Leave the arrow in unless it's poisoned-tip, was previously a
>> wriggling snake in the hands of Thulsa Doom or it happens to be on
>> fire!
>