Re: INSTEON: Let the recalls begin ...

["BruceR" <br@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I have a Beta copy now that I plan toplay around with this weekend. I
ran it and it did go out and get all the data from the installed
devices.


> You'll be happy to know that Electronic House Publishing has chosen
> HouseLinc Desktop software as "one of their favorite products". ;-)
>
> "BruceR" <br@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Insteon is still new and bugs are sure to appear. Had it not been for
>> the availability of the now discontinued X10 translator (2414X) I
>> wouldn't have jumped in. However, the X10 installation was getting
>> progressively worse to the point where my wife was getting annoyed
>> with it and my testing of UPB proved to be less than a reliable
>> option.  I ended up getting in on a developer's special from
>> Smarthome which made completion of the conversion an offer too good
>> to pass up.
>>
>> Things have actually settled down to where, except fro running
>> macros, things are fairly stable now. The mysterious "reprogramming"
>> corrected itself and the flickering is a rare occurrence contained
>> to just a few loads. IOW, even without RoZetta (a "true" X10
>> translator) things are actually better than the pre-Insteon X10
>> installation.
>>
>> I concede that others may have more inconvenience or even costs in
>> replacing a houseful of modules but growing pains are there with any
>> new technology. As far as electrocuting oneself, hot wiring is
>> neither good for the heart OR the modules. ALWAYS kill the breaker
>> on the circuit you're working on - (do as I say, not as I do!).
>> They do warn you to kill the power so I'm not sure they'd be held
>> liable for someone not following instructions.  BTW, they DO claim
>> to have ETL approval.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "BruceR" <br@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>
>>>>>> Well, as they say, "You can tell the Pioneers by the arrows in
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>
>>>>> backs!"  We do seem to be getting our share of arrows but the
>>>>>> overall  benefits will probably be worthwhile.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would those overall benefits be?
>>>>
>>>> The primary benefit is signal reliability. I've been working with
>>>> X10 stuff for 22 years and know the tricks and tips to signal
>>>> reliability but there are areas in my house that are just not
>>>> supportable with X10 - even with an XTB and/or repeaters and
>>>> filters - and, of course, even when it does work it may change.
>>>> Insteon signals are reliable and reach every square inch of my
>>>> house.  I think that after I replace the 2414X with the RoZetta my
>>>> experience will be much better.
>>>
>>> I am surprised that you never figured out what was blackholing your
>>> X-10 signal.  If anyone's got the tools and know-how, it's you.
>>> I'll also admit that in a larger house, I might be singing a
>>> different tune about X-10.  But I'm happy being coupled through the
>>> utility pole.  With the XTB, I reach ever corner.  If that weren't
>>> true, I'd be more inclined to experiment with Insteon.  The only
>>> issue left is the many Maxi and minicontrollers I have. Equipping
>>> them all with XTB's is not practical.  I might be able to solve it
>>> by running a 110VAC signaling circuit through the house that allows
>>> multiple controllers to share a smaller number of XTB's.  It's not
>>> very elegant, though.
>>>
>>> I recall that you had mysterious delink and relink problems in the
>>> worst SAF place in the house - the kitchen.  Until you run that to
>>> ground, I would have to put a question mark next to "signal
>>> reliability" since it would be a real issue in my house to screw up
>>> the kitchen lights.  Maybe that should come under some other
>>> heading, but it really makes me nervous when devices reprogram
>>> themselves.
>>>
>>> It makes me even more nervous when it's Switchlincs that are doing
>>> it because they already have a reputation for losing their address
>>> settings. This is another issue where I feel complexity is the enemy
>>> of reliability. I've never had a codewheel reset itself to a
>>> different house or unit code.
>>>
>>>>>> If I were paying an electrician to change these things I'd be
>>>>>> pissed but, as you point out, our time is worth nothing (unless
>>>>>> somebody else is willing to pay for it).  Even if I have to
>>>>>> replace everything, I can do it all in a day -
>>>>>
>>>>> But as my econ prof said "Wouldn't you rather be doing something
>>>>> else you *wanted* to do that day?"
>>>>
>>>> Sure, but it's an inconvenience rather than a dollar cost. I'm not
>>>> going to pass up doing something better to do the job but instead
>>>> do it when I'd normally be doing nothing more than staring at the
>>>> the tube.  It's not like a plumbing leak that has to be fixed
>>>> right this minute.
>>>
>>> You retired guys.  There's no weekend in the forseeable future where
>>> I would trade jackassing wall switches in and out for anything other
>>> than root canal work or an IRS audit.  Isn't it reasonable to assume
>>> that at least some others have a greater "switch jackassing" cost
>>> than you?  Some might have hired electricians, some might have
>>> traded favors with friends or BIL's for help and some might break
>>> off wires close to the wall and really get fu(ked.
>>>
>>>>> Lost opportunity costs are hard to
>>>>> see, but they're there.  If SmartHome had to pay the full freight
>>>>> of the SwitchLinc recall (electricians, lost time, potential home
>>>>> wiring damage) their bottom line would be bathed in red ink.  I
>>>>> don't know what their warranty says, but I'm betting they went to
>>>>> great pains to exclude liability for true recall costs.   The
>>>>> trouble is that in some states, you can exclude whatever you want
>>>>> but the courts have the final say whether those exclusions are
>>>>> sustainable.  My guess is that in consumer-friendly California,
>>>>> Smarthome's at risk.
>>>>
>>>> I think that, like most limited warranties, the remedy is to return
>>>> the unit for repair or replacement with no manufacturer liability
>>>> for installation, removal or shipping. That will hold up in most
>>>> states - > even California.
>>>
>>> All depends on state laws and case circumstances.  I'll admit it
>>> would be hard to get electrician's fees out of them, but in many
>>> product liability cases enterprising lawyers get hold of a smoking
>>> gun (the IBM/Hitachi HD class action suit, for one) that implicates
>>> the company in negligent behavior.  That case centered on company
>>> emails that showed IBM/Hitachi shipped drives that they knew to be
>>> bad.  Buyers of said drives often suffered serious consequential
>>> damages.
>>>
>>> If I have been following the threads correctly, there's real reason
>>> to believe that Smarthome is continuing to ship switches they have a
>>> fairly substantial reason to believe are defective.  Usually it's
>>> not until someone got fired or PO'ed at the company that such a
>>> leaked memo appears. Concealment was an issue in the Big Tobacco
>>> suits - they KNEW smoking was bad, and they continued to pump
>>> cigarettes out the door while working very hard to conceal the
>>> scientific proof.
>>>
>>> If the vendor behaves badly, the limited warranty won't exclude
>>> consequential damages in a number of states, of which I believe
>>> California is one.  Then there are other states where jurors can
>>> decide not only the facts of a case, but the law as well.  All bets
>>> are off in those states although judges rarely tell jurors of the
>>> awesome powers they possess. There's an interesting article here:
>>>
>>> http://www.truthinjustice.org/informed.htm
>>>
>>> I'll just say that if there's proof that they knew they were
>>> shipping bad switches and some poor schmoe electrocutes himself
>>> swapping out two dozen "known bad" switches when he might never
>>> have bought them had he known of the defect, I would bet on the
>>> poor schmoe's estate and lawyer to recover substantial sums.  That
>>> seems only reasonable to me, but then I'm very strongly
>>> pro-consumer.  When I owned a business, it was another story! :-)
>>>
>>>>> If it's  like any other industry, they'll settle up with the
>>>>> complainants that have threatened legal action and those
>>>>> consumers will get a much  better deal than most because
>>>>> I am sure Insteon is desperate to avoid a court case over
>>>>> the SwitchLincs.  Why?  Well, if they lose, it  might set a
>>>>> precedent for them having to pay those true costs for all
>>>>> the other Insteon users affected by the flicker problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Civil cases often focus on what it makes to make the plaintiff
>>>>> "whole" again.  In this case, that might easily include the cost
>>>>> of jacking out all the Insteon switches and replacing them with
>>>>> what was there before.  It could easily become worse if some
>>>>> former Insteon employee  releases embarrassing documents to
>>>>> the web (as has happened with other company's product
>>>>> liability suits) that make their way into litigation.
>>>>
>>>> I doubt anybody's going to sue. The damages are just not great
>>>> enough to warrant the costs and effort and Smarthome is doing
>>>> everything they've promised in their warranty.
>>>
>>> Dude.  People sue just for fun.  You owned a business so you must
>>> have run into the suit-happy customer.  If not, you were very, very
>>> lucky.  If someone paid an electrician to install the switches, and
>>> there were a lot of switches, you're talking about damages that will
>>> get you into virtually any US state's small claims court, some
>>> circuit courts and any TV court on the air, except, maybe, Divorce
>>> Court or Animal Court.  I'll bet you could solicit testimony from
>>> the wives of any HA enthusiast about the pain and suffering
>>> involved in a malfunction lighting system that might even get you
>>> on Divorce Court! :-)  I'd never consider myself suit-proof just
>>> based on a small dollar figure.  I've been sued for under $1000.
>>> I'm sure I am not alone.  All it takes is a highly pissed off
>>> plaintiff and a filing fee.
>>>
>>> Speaking much more seriously, the wife of a (hypothetical, AFAIK)
>>> man who was killed replacing switches would have a hell of wrongful
>>> death case. Especially if it could be proved that replacing the
>>> switches was very likely outcome of Smarthome's decision to
>>> continue selling the switches even after the defect was revealed.
>>> I doubt they could convince a jury that the replacement wasn't an
>>> inevitable outcome.
>>> If I ever get near a Lexis terminal again, I'll look to see if
>>> anyone's filed.  These kinds of recalls almost always involve at
>>> least the filing of suits, if not prolonged litigation.
>>>
>>> There were some mighty PO'ed sounding people on one of the forums I
>>> looked at and I'll bet some of them consider a lost weekend a big
>>> issue.  It may be that anyone who's bought switches after the
>>> problem became publicly known is entitled to more than a
>>> straight-up refund since Smarthome knew of the defect but continued
>>> to sell the items in question.  I don't recall them posting "If you
>>> intend to run loads at half dim" (or whatever the conditions were
>>> that caused flickering) "please wait until the next revision" in
>>> their ads.  The certainly could have made some sort of disclaimer I
>>> am not aware of at purchase time.
>>>
>>> Not seeking "informed consent" may very cleanly negate their
>>> disclaimer of consequential damages because they've already
>>> acknowledged the problem but apparently are continuing to sell the
>>> old, 'known bad' switches.  They can't have passed ETL muster yet,
>>> can they?   Hmmm.  I wouldn't want to be them right now.
>>>
>>> I think for them to be suit-proof, they would have had to stop sales
>>> or in the very least clearly detail the problem as best they knew it
>>> to potential buyers.  It doesn't seem as if they've done either,
>>> although I am sure their lawyer will point to their message board
>>> (and maybe even this thread!) as their disclaimer and notification.
>>> I suspect a jury would find that information should have been more
>>> prominently displayed, probably in the advertisements themselves.
>>>
>>> I'm really surprised they didn't stop selling the switches,
>>> particularly when I think about the potential legal issues.  I'll
>>> bet there were a least a couple of big meetings at HQ on the
>>> subject.  If there's a wrongful death claim, those minutes will be
>>> subpoenaed in discovery.  If those minutes or relevant emails say
>>> something dumb like "we knew that 2% of the end users would suffer
>>> this problem" then they've loaded and cocked the smoking gun. If
>>> they knew that someone was going to suffer as a result of their
>>> deliberate actions, then they're likely going to called on to make
>>> that 2% whole.
>>>
>>> While I do agree with you that lone plaintiffs would have very
>>> little $ incentive to sue, the worst thing that could happen to
>>> Smarthome now is for a class action attorney to get wind of the
>>> recall.  That's when the relatively small, 'unprofitable to
>>> litigate' claims whose small size had served to insulate them from
>>> legal action suddenly take on very serious proportions.  Sadly, the
>>> CA lawyers will get at least $250K in legal fees and consumers like
>>> you will get a $5 to $50 coupon for more of the same product!
>>>
>>> I wouldn't be surprised if some (probably more than one!) class
>>> action attorney scours Google Groups every day for the term "Class
>>> action lawsuit" or "product liability" and is already aiming an
>>> action at Smarthome.  The kicker is how many they've sold.  It's
>>> probably not even enough to entice a hungry class action lawyer.
>>>
>>>>> I salute you, brave pioneer, but I wouldn't want to BE you! :-)
>>>>
>>>> Oh, it's not so bad being me!
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, and the trick to the arrows is to break off the fletching and
>>>>> push the arrow THROUGH the wound.
>>>
>>> Important Revision to Arrow Wound Instructions 1A:
>>>
>>> Leave the arrow in unless it's poisoned-tip, was previously a
>>> wriggling snake in the hands of Thulsa Doom or it happens to be on
>>> fire!