Re: Need to cut through the BS on Alarm monitoring costs

[Robert Macy <robert.a.macy@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Feb 7, 11:53=A0am, tourman <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Feb 7, 11:58=A0am, blueman <NOS...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > tourman <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
> > > On Feb 5, 9:30=A0am, Robert Macy <robert.a.m...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >> On Feb 4, 10:05=A0pm, blueman <NOS...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >> ...snip...
>
> > >> > Well, the 'uneducated' installers at my alarm company are taught t=
o
> > >> > twist and solder. Unfortunately, the ones that did my installation=
 were
> > >> > lazy and "forgot" to even solder about half the connections -- the=
y were
> > >> > just twisted. So by going back and soldering the joints, all I did=
 was
> > >> > bring the installation up to the level that the installers are sup=
posed
> > >> > to do according to their training.
>
> > >> > Unless you are in some type of hostile environment (outdoors, near=
 the
> > >> > sea, chemical exposure), a good mechanical + solder connection sho=
uld
> > >> > last pretty much indefinitely. How do you think components are con=
nected
> > >> > inside the panel? I have made solder joints 40+ years ago that are=
 still
> > >> > good. If your joints are twisted, soldered, and taped in a 'normal=
'
> > >> > environment and still failing I call either "bullshit" or that you=
 are
> > >> > not as good at soldering as you think. Perhaps you have some cold =
solder
> > >> > joints? In 40 years of doing electronics, I have never seen a prop=
erly
> > >> > done solder joint fail by itself (of course enough mechanical twis=
ting
> > >> > will break the joint but the wire itself would typical break even
> > >> > ealier). Also, in my experience, CRIMP connections are at least as
> > >> > likely to fail since a lot of people don't do a good job crimping =
-
> > >> > either too much or too little crimping force or they don't insert =
the
> > >> > wires properly. Also, a solder joint is both a mechanical and a
> > >> > chemical/welded connection, so it is theoretically electrically su=
perior
> > >> > to a crimp connection.
>
> > >> ...snip...
>
> > >> I was further told to NOT solder a crimped connection, because it
> > >> undoes the 'goodness' of the connection. =A0Seems the heat eases the
> > >> spring forces undoing the advantages of a spring loaded connection.
> > >> Telephone companies, do NOT solder ther land wires for same reason.
> > >> always spring forces and crimps. =A0I always thought that was done
> > >> because the lack of AC power in the field to make a good solder
> > >> connection forced them to rely on these crimp connection, a 'lesser'
> > >> quality connection [in my mind only].
>
> > >> Yes, I'm aware of solder inside electronic systems. I used to design
> > >> autopilots [somewhat of a major reliability requirement] and telecom
> > >> systems that MUST have 50,000 hours MTBF! =A0Armed with those
> > >> experiences *and* a university degree I didn't listen to EXPERIENCED
> > >> installers. I KNEW better. W R O N G ! =A0Again, my PERFECT soldered
> > >> connections false alarmed in 1 year external and 10 years internal.
> > >> Going around re-soldering, they all held again for about the same
> > >> amount of time.
>
> > >> For a connection to fail in a security system it only needs to open
> > >> for microseconds, then reconnect for another month. =A0Most people
> > >> wouldn't even notice that happening inside their CD player, TV, etc.
> > >> And, THAT'S exactly what those solder connections did. False alarm,
> > >> hold several months, false alarm, hold month, false alarm, until got
> > >> down to every week, then re-solder to fix...and last for another 10
> > >> years.
>
> > > RHC: Soldering connections in any professional alarm installation is
> > > something I, nor anyone else I know in the business, does as a matter
> > > of course. I have installed 1000's of alarms using the industry
> > > standard "B" connectors and in a decade and a half, I have never had
> > > ANY problems with this kind of connection on an alarm system. The
> > > biggest danger is nicking the wire when stripping the insulation off;
> > > this will cause problems that may not show up for awhile. I have a
> > > lucky pair of cutters, that are just now dull enough to ensure I don'=
t
> > > ever do that. I have told my son, if and when I lose this favourite
> > > pair of strippers, I will retire on the spot...:))
>
> > > A far bigger problem is amateur installers who twist the wire
> > > together, then put a piece of the insulation back over the connection=
.
> > > With crimp style B connectors costing about $18 for a thousand, what
> > > kind of untrained, cheapsh*t idiot does that. To answer my own
> > > question, far too many....
>
> > Interesting -- the comany that did my installion is by far the biggest
> > company in my home state of Massachusetts. They have 20,000 plus
> > customers. They are considered the "cadillac" of alarm companies and
> > saturate all the upscale neighborhoods.
>
> > Yet their installations use solder connections... go figure.
> > All connections (except at the panel) are twisted, soldered, and wrappe=
d
> > in white electrical tape... They believe (rightly or wrongly) that it i=
s
> > the mark of a high quality installation.
>
> > Personally, I would agree that crimp connections are certainly faster
> > and most likely as reliable as solder if done correctly. Solder
> > connections also are harder to do and take more skill. Hence since time
> > is money and the average installer has barely a high school degree and
> > some minimal technical training, it makes sense to use some type of
> > connector.
>
> RHC: Sir, it has nothing to do with anyone's level of education. You
> seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder relative to the people
> in our trade. It is a simple matter of the fact that approved B crimp
> connectors are widely in use in the industry and 100% reliable as long
> as the wires are never nicked in the process. I don't know anything
> about this company you speak of; however, if in fact they are
> soldering every connection, they are widely wasting their time for
> little or no benefit. Plus in some of the areas where we typically
> have to work, a hot soldering iron would be a fire hazard in the
> extreme. Why would any company risk setting a fire for no real gain.
> It sounds to me as if the management of this company are stuck
> somewhere in the 1960's....
>
> PS: Speaking for myself, I hold two university degrees. Most
> installers I know are not necessarily college educated, but I submit
> to you, this has no bearing on their attitude to work, or much of
> anything else for that matter. Success in business has more to do with
> basic, old world attitudes towards honest and hard work than to any
> specific level of education. I have at one time, run a business worth
> over $600 million a year, but this does not make me a good installer,
> or for that matter, a good independant businessman either.
>
> I suggest, if you wish to be taken seriously here, a change in basic
> attitude might help.....

I STILL stand behind my claim that crimp [pressure gas seal]
connection is more reliable than a solder connection.

Based upon the following three items:
1. Telephone company uses it, and made it super fast and easy.
2. The Experienced Security System Installers with years of experience
that I worked with insisted it was so.
3. My personal experience after ignoring their advice, and believe me
I KNOW how to solder well. Clean copper wire, twisted 5 to 7 times,
[actually duplicating a pressure contact - not counting on the solder
for connection, rather counting on the copper to copper connection
with solder merely 'holding' the connection together] flux soldered
with fresh solder and beautiful wicking, and no crystalization visible
using 10X examination. Solder ALWAYS crystalizes as it cools, nature
of the process, but should not be allowed to cool with an excessive
gradient across the junction.

There must be some objective reliability data regarding this subject.
Any Environmental Test Labs out there that's done these tests and will
share results?