Re: Need to cut through the BS on Alarm monitoring costs

[blueman <NOSPAM@xxxxxxxxxx>]

tourman <robercampbell@xxxxxxxxx> writes:

> On Feb 5, 9:30Â am, Robert Macy <robert.a.m...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> On Feb 4, 10:05Â pm, blueman <NOS...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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>> > Well, the 'uneducated' installers at my alarm company are taught to
>> > twist and solder. Unfortunately, the ones that did my installation were
>> > lazy and "forgot" to even solder about half the connections -- they were
>> > just twisted. So by going back and soldering the joints, all I did was
>> > bring the installation up to the level that the installers are supposed
>> > to do according to their training.
>>
>> > Unless you are in some type of hostile environment (outdoors, near the
>> > sea, chemical exposure), a good mechanical + solder connection should
>> > last pretty much indefinitely. How do you think components are connected
>> > inside the panel? I have made solder joints 40+ years ago that are still
>> > good. If your joints are twisted, soldered, and taped in a 'normal'
>> > environment and still failing I call either "bullshit" or that you are
>> > not as good at soldering as you think. Perhaps you have some cold solder
>> > joints? In 40 years of doing electronics, I have never seen a properly
>> > done solder joint fail by itself (of course enough mechanical twisting
>> > will break the joint but the wire itself would typical break even
>> > ealier). Also, in my experience, CRIMP connections are at least as
>> > likely to fail since a lot of people don't do a good job crimping -
>> > either too much or too little crimping force or they don't insert the
>> > wires properly. Also, a solder joint is both a mechanical and a
>> > chemical/welded connection, so it is theoretically electrically superior
>> > to a crimp connection.
>>
>> ...snip...
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>> I was further told to NOT solder a crimped connection, because it
>> undoes the 'goodness' of the connection. Â Seems the heat eases the
>> spring forces undoing the advantages of a spring loaded connection.
>> Telephone companies, do NOT solder ther land wires for same reason.
>> always spring forces and crimps. Â I always thought that was done
>> because the lack of AC power in the field to make a good solder
>> connection forced them to rely on these crimp connection, a 'lesser'
>> quality connection [in my mind only].
>>
>> Yes, I'm aware of solder inside electronic systems. I used to design
>> autopilots [somewhat of a major reliability requirement] and telecom
>> systems that MUST have 50,000 hours MTBF! Â Armed with those
>> experiences *and* a university degree I didn't listen to EXPERIENCED
>> installers. I KNEW better. W R O N G ! Â Again, my PERFECT soldered
>> connections false alarmed in 1 year external and 10 years internal.
>> Going around re-soldering, they all held again for about the same
>> amount of time.
>>
>> For a connection to fail in a security system it only needs to open
>> for microseconds, then reconnect for another month. Â Most people
>> wouldn't even notice that happening inside their CD player, TV, etc.
>> And, THAT'S exactly what those solder connections did. False alarm,
>> hold several months, false alarm, hold month, false alarm, until got
>> down to every week, then re-solder to fix...and last for another 10
>> years.
>
> RHC: Soldering connections in any professional alarm installation is
> something I, nor anyone else I know in the business, does as a matter
> of course. I have installed 1000's of alarms using the industry
> standard "B" connectors and in a decade and a half, I have never had
> ANY problems with this kind of connection on an alarm system. The
> biggest danger is nicking the wire when stripping the insulation off;
> this will cause problems that may not show up for awhile. I have a
> lucky pair of cutters, that are just now dull enough to ensure I don't
> ever do that. I have told my son, if and when I lose this favourite
> pair of strippers, I will retire on the spot...:))
>
> A far bigger problem is amateur installers who twist the wire
> together, then put a piece of the insulation back over the connection.
> With crimp style B connectors costing about $18 for a thousand, what
> kind of untrained, cheapsh*t idiot does that. To answer my own
> question, far too many....

Interesting -- the comany that did my installion is by far the biggest
company in my home state of Massachusetts. They have 20,000 plus
customers. They are considered the "cadillac" of alarm companies and
saturate all the upscale neighborhoods.

Yet their installations use solder connections... go figure.
All connections (except at the panel) are twisted, soldered, and wrapped
in white electrical tape... They believe (rightly or wrongly) that it is
the mark of a high quality installation.

Personally, I would agree that crimp connections are certainly faster
and most likely as reliable as solder if done correctly. Solder
connections also are harder to do and take more skill. Hence since time
is money and the average installer has barely a high school degree and
some minimal technical training, it makes sense to use some type of
connector.