Re: Need to cut through the BS on Alarm monitoring costs

["Bob La Londe" <none@xxxxxxxx>]

"Robert Macy" <robert.a.macy@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:15b7a86c-3c8c-490e-9bc8-b190207a9c5f@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> On Feb 7, 11:53 am, tourman <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> On Feb 7, 11:58 am, blueman <NOS...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > tourman <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
>> > > On Feb 5, 9:30 am, Robert Macy <robert.a.m...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> > >> On Feb 4, 10:05 pm, blueman <NOS...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> > >> ...snip...
>>
>> > >> > Well, the 'uneducated' installers at my alarm company are taught
>> > >> > to
>> > >> > twist and solder. Unfortunately, the ones that did my installation
>> > >> > were
>> > >> > lazy and "forgot" to even solder about half the connections --
>> > >> > they were
>> > >> > just twisted. So by going back and soldering the joints, all I did
>> > >> > was
>> > >> > bring the installation up to the level that the installers are
>> > >> > supposed
>> > >> > to do according to their training.
>>
>> > >> > Unless you are in some type of hostile environment (outdoors, near
>> > >> > the
>> > >> > sea, chemical exposure), a good mechanical + solder connection
>> > >> > should
>> > >> > last pretty much indefinitely. How do you think components are
>> > >> > connected
>> > >> > inside the panel? I have made solder joints 40+ years ago that are
>> > >> > still
>> > >> > good. If your joints are twisted, soldered, and taped in a
>> > >> > 'normal'
>> > >> > environment and still failing I call either "bullshit" or that you
>> > >> > are
>> > >> > not as good at soldering as you think. Perhaps you have some cold
>> > >> > solder
>> > >> > joints? In 40 years of doing electronics, I have never seen a
>> > >> > properly
>> > >> > done solder joint fail by itself (of course enough mechanical
>> > >> > twisting
>> > >> > will break the joint but the wire itself would typical break even
>> > >> > ealier). Also, in my experience, CRIMP connections are at least as
>> > >> > likely to fail since a lot of people don't do a good job
>> > >> > crimping -
>> > >> > either too much or too little crimping force or they don't insert
>> > >> > the
>> > >> > wires properly. Also, a solder joint is both a mechanical and a
>> > >> > chemical/welded connection, so it is theoretically electrically
>> > >> > superior
>> > >> > to a crimp connection.
>>
>> > >> ...snip...
>>
>> > >> I was further told to NOT solder a crimped connection, because it
>> > >> undoes the 'goodness' of the connection.  Seems the heat eases the
>> > >> spring forces undoing the advantages of a spring loaded connection.
>> > >> Telephone companies, do NOT solder ther land wires for same reason.
>> > >> always spring forces and crimps.  I always thought that was done
>> > >> because the lack of AC power in the field to make a good solder
>> > >> connection forced them to rely on these crimp connection, a 'lesser'
>> > >> quality connection [in my mind only].
>>
>> > >> Yes, I'm aware of solder inside electronic systems. I used to design
>> > >> autopilots [somewhat of a major reliability requirement] and telecom
>> > >> systems that MUST have 50,000 hours MTBF!  Armed with those
>> > >> experiences *and* a university degree I didn't listen to EXPERIENCED
>> > >> installers. I KNEW better. W R O N G !  Again, my PERFECT soldered
>> > >> connections false alarmed in 1 year external and 10 years internal.
>> > >> Going around re-soldering, they all held again for about the same
>> > >> amount of time.
>>
>> > >> For a connection to fail in a security system it only needs to open
>> > >> for microseconds, then reconnect for another month.  Most people
>> > >> wouldn't even notice that happening inside their CD player, TV, etc.
>> > >> And, THAT'S exactly what those solder connections did. False alarm,
>> > >> hold several months, false alarm, hold month, false alarm, until got
>> > >> down to every week, then re-solder to fix...and last for another 10
>> > >> years.
>>
>> > > RHC: Soldering connections in any professional alarm installation is
>> > > something I, nor anyone else I know in the business, does as a matter
>> > > of course. I have installed 1000's of alarms using the industry
>> > > standard "B" connectors and in a decade and a half, I have never had
>> > > ANY problems with this kind of connection on an alarm system. The
>> > > biggest danger is nicking the wire when stripping the insulation off;
>> > > this will cause problems that may not show up for awhile. I have a
>> > > lucky pair of cutters, that are just now dull enough to ensure I
>> > > don't
>> > > ever do that. I have told my son, if and when I lose this favourite
>> > > pair of strippers, I will retire on the spot...:))
>>
>> > > A far bigger problem is amateur installers who twist the wire
>> > > together, then put a piece of the insulation back over the
>> > > connection.
>> > > With crimp style B connectors costing about $18 for a thousand, what
>> > > kind of untrained, cheapsh*t idiot does that. To answer my own
>> > > question, far too many....
>>
>> > Interesting -- the comany that did my installion is by far the biggest
>> > company in my home state of Massachusetts. They have 20,000 plus
>> > customers. They are considered the "cadillac" of alarm companies and
>> > saturate all the upscale neighborhoods.
>>
>> > Yet their installations use solder connections... go figure.
>> > All connections (except at the panel) are twisted, soldered, and
>> > wrapped
>> > in white electrical tape... They believe (rightly or wrongly) that it
>> > is
>> > the mark of a high quality installation.
>>
>> > Personally, I would agree that crimp connections are certainly faster
>> > and most likely as reliable as solder if done correctly. Solder
>> > connections also are harder to do and take more skill. Hence since time
>> > is money and the average installer has barely a high school degree and
>> > some minimal technical training, it makes sense to use some type of
>> > connector.
>>
>> RHC: Sir, it has nothing to do with anyone's level of education. You
>> seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder relative to the people
>> in our trade. It is a simple matter of the fact that approved B crimp
>> connectors are widely in use in the industry and 100% reliable as long
>> as the wires are never nicked in the process. I don't know anything
>> about this company you speak of; however, if in fact they are
>> soldering every connection, they are widely wasting their time for
>> little or no benefit. Plus in some of the areas where we typically
>> have to work, a hot soldering iron would be a fire hazard in the
>> extreme. Why would any company risk setting a fire for no real gain.
>> It sounds to me as if the management of this company are stuck
>> somewhere in the 1960's....
>>
>> PS: Speaking for myself, I hold two university degrees. Most
>> installers I know are not necessarily college educated, but I submit
>> to you, this has no bearing on their attitude to work, or much of
>> anything else for that matter. Success in business has more to do with
>> basic, old world attitudes towards honest and hard work than to any
>> specific level of education. I have at one time, run a business worth
>> over $600 million a year, but this does not make me a good installer,
>> or for that matter, a good independant businessman either.
>>
>> I suggest, if you wish to be taken seriously here, a change in basic
>> attitude might help.....
>
> I STILL stand behind my claim that crimp [pressure gas seal]
> connection is more reliable than a solder connection.

This claim would require a definition of "better".

> Based upon the following three items:
> 1. Telephone company uses it, and made it super fast and easy.

They mostly use a ScotchLok or similar type connector.  They also use
uniform wire sizes in the applications where they use them, and they tend to
explode when they take a high voltage spike from a nearby lightning strike.
I have re-spliced hundreds of pairs in pedestals after a particularly bad
storm. UR, UY, and UG connectors only work on solid wire.  I use them on
underground and aerial telephone applications.  These are one of the easiest
connectors to use right if used for the correct application.  These are
almost always grease filled to protect the connections from oxidation.

> 2. The Experienced Security System Installers with years of experience
> that I worked with insisted it was so.

Security tends towards B wire connectors (commonly called beanies).  While
with some care and attention to detail they can be used on stranded and
solid wire, and wire of different sizes, they were really intended to be
used for solid wire of the same size.  I have been using them for about
almost as long as I have been using ScotchLoks.  Beanies are fairly easy to
use, but proper tapered crimping requires a specialized tool that almost
nobody has.  I have one, but I am so in tune with getting beans installed
just right for both intended and non-intended use that I use the rear smooth
square jaw of my needles.  Two crimps.  One firm at the tip and one less
firm at the opening seems to work fairly well, but I have found it to be
difficult to teach that to people.  Also methods for dealing with different
size wires, stranded wire, etc.  These can be ordered either dry or grease
filled.

> 3. My personal experience after ignoring their advice, and believe me
> I KNOW how to solder well. Clean copper wire, twisted 5 to 7 times,
> [actually duplicating a pressure contact - not counting on the solder
> for connection, rather counting on the copper to copper connection
> with solder merely 'holding' the connection together] flux soldered
> with fresh solder and beautiful wicking, and no crystalization visible
> using 10X examination. Solder ALWAYS crystalizes as it cools, nature
> of the process, but should not be allowed to cool with an excessive
> gradient across the junction.

Soldering works with any size wire, and stranded or solid or both equally.
While soldering properly has a learning curve, once somebody learns to "see"
the shine and flow of a proper solder joint they can do any type of wire
(with a soldering iron suitable to the job).

> There must be some objective reliability data regarding this subject.
> Any Environmental Test Labs out there that's done these tests and will
> share results?

One of my bosses a bazillion years ago (before I started my own company)
went to one of those fancy hoity toity tech schools.  He told me they did
some testing in school and they found that for their proper applications
when installed properly beanies made a better electrical connection than a
Scotchlok, but that proper soldering for a non movement/vibration
environment was still the standard against which other electrical
connections are made.

That being said, I have worked on alarm systems that are all soldered and
shrink wrapped at every connection, and they problems I have found have
always been with the hardware.  Not the wiring or the solder joints.

I use beanies in the field for alarms because they are fast, non-toxic, and
slightly more versatile than ScotchLoks.