Re: Some people never learn

[nick markowitz <nmarkowitz@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Aug 13, 2:06=A0pm, Jim <alarmi...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Aug 12, 9:29=A0pm, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 12, 7:53=A0pm, Jim <alarmi...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 12, 6:09=A0pm, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > On Aug 12, 12:55=A0pm, Jim <alarmi...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Aug 12, 12:27=A0pm, "Bob La Londe" <nos...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > > "nick markowitz" <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>
> > > > > >news:dffb7bde-4062-46ab-ab39-92513475118d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=
ps.com...
>
> > > > > > > On Aug 11, 7:03 pm, Jim Rojas <jro...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > > > >> nick markowitz wrote:
> > > > > > >> > One of my institutional customers got a grant and insisted=
 on using a
> > > > > > >> > card access manufacturer I do not deal with so they hired =
a computer
> > > > > > >> > place to install 7 door system and all 7 doors fail to mee=
t ICC-
> > > > > > >> > NEC70 and in addition fail to meet the PA-DPW codes for re=
sidential
> > > > > > >> > programs.
> > > > > > >> > needless to say I get a call today after they get failed a=
nd asked if
> > > > > > >> > i can fix it.
> > > > > > >> > yes I tell them whole thing needs ripped out and redone pr=
operly as
> > > > > > >> > they have violated all these different rules and there wor=
kman ship is
> > > > > > >> > terrible.
> > > > > > >> > So now it is going to cost them twice.
> > > > > > >> > Some people never learn.
>
> > > > > > >> I use to have that happen to me on large fire alarm & access=
 control
> > > > > > >> jobs...electrical contractor outbids me, then has the nerve =
to call me
> > > > > > >> to clean up his mess. Yes, it does cost them at least twice =
the amount.
>
> > > > > > >> Jim Rojas
> > > > > > >> Technical Manuals Online!http://www.tech-man.com
> > > > > > >> 8002 Cornwall Lane
> > > > > > >> Tampa, FL 33615-4604
> > > > > > >> 813-884-6335
>
> > > > > > > I do not know why contractors fail to call and check things o=
ut ahead
> > > > > > > of time with the AHJ and always think they can getaway with s=
omething
> > > > > > > or deal with it later attitude.
> > > > > > > I get flack from other alarm dealers all the time because i d=
esign a
> > > > > > > system and it gets passed 1st time and AHJ will not let other=
 company
> > > > > > > do it and they get all mad because they failed to read and un=
derstand
> > > > > > > the code and they end up redoing it 2-3 times before they get=
 it
> > > > > > > right.
> > > > > > > Then again some company's should just not be in business peri=
od.
>
> > > > > > Funny, here in Az an electrical engineer must design any "requi=
red"
> > > > > > commercial fire alarm system, except that some AHJs will allow =
a basic
> > > > > > approved panel with a simple plan for sprinkler monitoring only=
.
>
> > > > > > I get clients all the time who just want me to throw something =
together.
>
> > > > > > I would kinda like the engineer required approach if it worked.=
 =A0Often the
> > > > > > electrical engineers throw in enough "contractor will specify" =
or
> > > > > > "contractor will change to meet code" type language to basicall=
y make their
> > > > > > original drawing suspect at best. =A0One set of plans I got sai=
d something to
> > > > > > the affect, "It is the contractors responsibility to meet all a=
pplicable
> > > > > > codes and make changes to the plans as needed to do so." =A0Ano=
ther the
> > > > > > engineer actually sent somebody to survey a site that had an an=
cient fire
> > > > > > system that had not worked since the dawn of resistance loop me=
ter panels.
> > > > > > They did a nice detail drawing of the 10% of the building where=
 there was
> > > > > > some remodeling and new construction going on, and then there w=
as this big
> > > > > > cloud on the rest of the main floor, the other two floors and t=
he basement
> > > > > > that just said, "connect existing system." =A0The existing syst=
em was mostly
> > > > > > Ademco 597 radioactives strung together with lamp cord. =A0And =
they had all
> > > > > > been painted over. =A0It made it impossible to bid legally or h=
onestly.-
>
> > > > > These are the types of things, along with dealing with the " I do=
n't
> > > > > know .... cover their ass, power flaunting " attitudes of the Fir=
e
> > > > > Marshals and their lackies, that I opted out of the installation =
of
> > > > > commercial fire. I really don't have the time nor patience to dea=
l
> > > > > with them. I can make much more money with less time spent .....
> > > > > elsewhere.
>
> > > > > When I think of dealing with the Fire Marshals and their buracrac=
y,
> > > > > I'm reminded of something that someone who used to work as an eng=
ineer
> > > > > at a major military aircraft company told me. "When the weight of=
 the
> > > > > paperwork equals the weight of the aircraft, it's time to ship th=
e
> > > > > plane"
>
> > > > All in all once you learn the codes etc. its not that big of a deal=
 to
> > > > do commercail fire.
> > > > most of the old lackey AHJ are now gone with the ICC in place.
> > > > But one thing I always do is check with AHJ =A0before bidding and o=
r
> > > > starting any thing it makes the job go so much easier so if you do =
hit
> > > > a snag it can be taken care of =A0in an easy manner.
> > > > Some areas there strict and other areas there well not so strict. B=
ut
> > > > knowing the code when you meet with the AHJ goes along way towards
> > > > getting a job done and completed on time and cost.-
>
> > > Well ...... that was just another reason why I got out of it. I knew
> > > the code but they didn't and I STILL had to do it their way.
>
> > > I don't know if you remember the old Ademco 1011 burglar alarm bell
> > > box ...... but anyway, we had a Fire Marshall in a township in anothe=
r
> > > area who required that every commercial fire alarm have an Ademco
> > > BURGLAR ALARM bell and box on the outside of the building with a
> > > custom made red sign on it that said FIRE ALARM. The old fashioned
> > > vibrating bells would create all kinds of interference with the
> > > panels. Even after Ademco discontinued the 1011 he still required it
> > > and no one was getting their systems signed off until someone ( month=
s
> > > later) finally convinced him that you couldn't get the product
> > > anymore. Only then were we were allowed to use something else. Then
> > > after that, I saw some companys were putting INSIDE horns on the
> > > outside of the buildings and they were being signed off.
>
> > > I just don't have the patience to deal with crap like that. I KNOW
> > > WHAT's RIGHT and yet I've got to do what some asshole who doesn't eve=
n
> > > know what his job is ..... says??? =A0And he can't be fired??? =A0 No=
t me.
> > > I don't work that way. And I'm not the kind of person who's going to
> > > shmooze up to someone like that, just to get my jobs signed off. I
> > > ultimately told him to shove his stupid rules up his ass ..... got
> > > fined $300.00 for the privlege and ultimately sent him a letter with =
a
> > > copy to the county legislature, recounting all of the asinine things
> > > he had done and was still doing. All of that just got me the
> > > satisfaction of knowing that there wasn't a damn thing he could do to
> > > me .... anymore. I've seen him twice since then and had fun fliping
> > > him the bird. Every once in a while he sends his lackys to some of th=
e
> > > association meetings and I always succeed in putting them on the spot
> > > about their lack of knowledge about their job or lack of being able t=
o
> > > show that their stupid rules make their jurisdiction any better than
> > > other jurisdictions.
>
> > > Like now they are saying that they wont accept VoIP as phone lines no
> > > matter what. There are some new areas that are being developed here
> > > that just don't have any communication copper at all. They don't have
> > > an answer except that VoIP is not acceptable and they don't have an
> > > alternative. So now, =A0all those people who's insurance requie that
> > > they have fire alarms will just have to do ........ what?
>
> > > And it's that blind, =A0..... I don't care what your problems are, th=
ese
> > > are the rules that I made up, with no rhyme or reason and you have to
> > > obey them ....... attitude, that pisses me off.
>
> > Well one good thing here in Pa. all inspectors now must be certified
> > under ICC (that blue card thing) and all answer to the state if a
> > complaint is filed against them.
> > So it has stopped alot of the nonsense that went on.
> > In old days when i got one of those idiots a certified letter went to
> > the towns =A0council =A0and then to there insurance carrier. clearly
> > stating issues and consequences if shit hit the fan.
> > Amazing how all the nonsense went away.When a township realized they
> > could be held liable for there inspectors stupidity.
> > Got to have balls as big as Godzilla for some of the things I have had
> > to do but its either that or get on your knees and start sucking.-
>
> That's what I'd thought years ago.
> I can only hope that what I did ..... back then ..... gave somone else
> some incentive to do something and that it might eventually stop the
> crap in this area. But, from what I hear, it seems like the
> electricians are gaining the ground that they pay for (in various
> ways) and alarm companys are being slowly inched out of commercial
> fire alarms. Only the National alarmcos get to bid on the big jobs
> along with the electricians. It seems as if .... since the
> electricians get to be known by the building and electical inspectors,
> their names get passed on to the fire inspectors who give them an
> advantage on fire jobs. Alarm companys don't have this connection so
> they get a hard time which makes it unprofitable. Also, since the
> electrical trade pretty much has price fixed their industry and have a
> much larger profit margin on electrical work than alarm companys have
> on alarm work, they can outbid an alarm company on an alarm job that
> they are also doing the electical.
>
> Same ol shit.
> I'm sure happy I got my head out of it. It used to frustrated the hell
> out of me. I still get pissed when I hear stories about what happens
> now, but then I smile. I know you don't like residential but I gotta
> tell ya, I don't get half as pissed as I used to, when I was doing
> commercial fire. Little old ladies are ...
>
> read more =BB

Part of the problem is how architects design bid packages.
the national standard does not recognize  alarms as a stand alone  bid
package
it is lumped under electrical. along with data and communications.
Not that alarm company's can not bid it  but the word goes out to
electrical contractors not alarm company's.
 and you sub bid under a electrical contractor in most cases unless a
building owner makes an exception and specifically says I want to use
and  alarm dealer not a electrical contractor.
Thats why engineered systems are so popular now.
but when you sit and talk to building owners and give them all the
advantages of breaking alarms out separate many will do so.
The Electrical firms I sub under always offer a value engineered
designed option to customers
where they break from what architect has specked.
And many when they know there's this option will take it. or at least
parts of it depending on budget etc.
when you can save them 40-60% over the term of the contract they
listen in today's economy.