Re: Need help with PLC noise problems in a Manhattan (New York City) apartment

[nobody@xxxxxxxxxxxx (Dave Houston)]

An inventory of your X-10 modules/switches might be helpful. X-10
transmitters such as your CM15A, any two-way devices and any other
"tranceivers (e.g. RR501, TM751) are of particular interest.

In a brief search I was unable to find out much about the 6285 signal
attenuator but I doubt that it can amplify. None of the literature I found
on it gives a figure for how much it attenuates.

You use the phrase "noise level" but I don't see any reference to anything
that can actually measure signal or noise levels. The TesterLinc manual
indicates that it does not measure a level but only counts cycles within
some (unspecified) window. What quality counts do you see if you use the
CM15A to send PLC during relatively noise-free times? What quality counts do
you see during high noise times (without sending anything yourself)?

The TesterLinc also has a much narrower bandwidth (110-140kHz) than the
typical X-10 receiver although that doesn't appear to be a factor here.

What housecodes does the CM15A transceive?

You will need a plug-in filter for the noisy monitor - the 6285 only blocks
signal or noise from passing in or out of your apartment's wiring.

Has the building always contained apartments or has it been converted from
commercial use?

I'd love to know how Insteon would behave in this situation.

"AlanTinNYC" <AlanTinNYC@xxxxxxx> wrote:

>Hi there.  I've been having ongoing noise issues with my new
>apartment and our lights go on and off at random.  After
>testing for three months and trying several different noise
>filters, I don't yet have the results I need.  Time to ask
>around for help.
>
>Also, all the installers I can find in my "area" are
>actually not in Manhattan but in other boros or Northern New
>Jersey, where single-family homes are more prevalent than
>apartment buildings.
>
>
>
>Here's what I know:
>
>1)  My apartment building isn't huge - only about 50
>    apartments (8 or 9 on each of six floors)
>
>2)  My apartment is actually TWO apartments combined
>    (let's call them 2B and 2C) with the wall between them
>    knocked down.  But we have two separate breaker panels,
>    each on a separate electric meter, each servicing half
>    the apartment.
>
>3)  I have learned, unfortunately, that I am far more
>    knowledgeable about X10/DHC than my general contractor's
>    licensed electrician is (or cares to be).
>
>4)  Using a Smarthome Testerlinc meter, I can determine
>    that I have 121kHz noise coming in from outside my
>    apartments because I can meter 120kHz activity, and bad
>    codes, while all our circuits breakers in both panels
>    are switched off (except for the breaker feeding this
>    meter).
>
>5)  The master shut-off breakers in the basement (two
>    per apartment; we have single split-phase wiring) are
>    grouped together in sets of 5 apartments, as follows
>    (you may need to switch to a fixed-width font):
>
>
>
>    ______________________           ______________________
>   |                      |         |                      |
>   |                      |         |                      |
>   |  (MASTER BREAKERS)   |         |  (MASTER BREAKERS)   |
>   |                      |         |                      |
>   |    |----|  |----|    |         |    |----|  |----|    |
>   | 6A |  | |  | |  | 6A |         | 5B |  | |  | |  | 5B |
>   |    |----|  |----|    |         |    |----|  |----|    |
>   |                      |         |                      |
>   |    |----|  |----|    |         |    |----|  |----|    |
>   | 1B |  | |  | |  | 1B |         | 6B |  | |  | |  | 6B |
>   |    |----|  |----|    |         |    |----|  |----|    |
>   |                      |         |                      |
>   |    |----|  |----|    |         |    |----|  |----|    |
>   | 2B |  | |  | |  | 2B |         | 1C |  | |  | |  | 1C |
>   |    |----|  |----|    |         |    |----|  |----|    |
>   |                      |         |                      |
>   |    |----|  |----|    |         |    |----|  |----|    |
>   | 3B |  | |  | |  | 3B |         | 2C |  | |  | |  | 2C |
>   |    |----|  |----|    |         |    |----|  |----|    |
>   |                      |         |                      |
>   |    |----|  |----|    |         |    |----|  |----|    |
>   | 4B |  | |  | |  | 4B |         | 3C |  | |  | |  | 3C |
>   |    |----|  |----|    |         |    |----|  |----|    |
>   |                      |         |                      |
>   |                      |         |                      |
>   ------------------------         ------------------------
>
>
>    So my 2B apartment shares a common neutral with
>    apartments 6A, 1B, 3B, and 4B, while my 2C apartment
>    shares a common neutral with 5B, 6B, 1C and 3C.
>
>
>
>6)  This make some sense given our results: although I
>    have noise coming in from other apartments or elsewhere
>    in the neighborhood, the noise levels differ on each
>    phase of each service panel.  My assumption is that 2B
>    is seeing noise generated mostly by 6A through 4B and
>    that 2C is seeing noise generated mostly by 5B through
>    3C.
>
>7)  For what it's worth: the 2B master shutoff breakers are
>    50 amps and the 2C master shutoff breakers are 40 amps.
>
>
>
>That describes the environment.  Now for our filtering attempts:
>
>At first we tried installing PZZ01 filters in the 2B and 2C
>service panels, with some success but not enough: noise
>levels and random lighting malfunctions were reduced but
>still present.  Also, controller signals generated on a 2C
>line were still able to operate devices on the 2B panel,
>suggesting that these filters aren't powerful enough for my
>application.  (Not that I want to use two separate
>controllers in one home, but that's the nature of the beast.
>I don't want a downstairs neighbor controlling my lights,
>either.)
>
>I now have Leviton 6285 signal attenuators installed at each
>service panel, with greater success.  We've had some lights
>flicker on in the 2 days since installation, but none
>flicker off.  There seems to be good isolation between the
>two service panels.  I have not yet installed Leviton
>HCA02-10E signal amplifiers, but I'm not sure we'll need
>them: my ActiveHome Pro controller usually works well, while
>noise levels are usually quiet.  But I'm metering 1 - 2 hours
>each night with high noise levels and the ActiveHome Pro
>signals can't get through (like the old paradigm of
>whispering in a crowded restaurant).
>
>Here's the weird part: during these high noise periods, the
>Leviton 6285 seems to be AMPLIFYING the noise, not
>attenuating it.  When I switch its breakers off, the noise
>level drops.
>
>During the other 14 or so hours of the waking day, the 6285
>is indeed reducing noise levels:  when we switch the breakers
>off, the noise level jumps, as we would expect.
>
>Also add to the mix: last night I discovered that one item
>in the apartment -- an old PC monitor -- is indeed adding
>noise at random times to the system, whether it's on, off
>or in standby.  I pulled its plug.
>
>
>
>My questions for the group:
>
>1)  Are there known situations or environments when a
>    Leviton 6285 can boost noise rather than attenuate it?
>    Is it ever known to be flaky like this (suggesting I
>    have a bad unit), or is this an indication that I didn't
>    install it properly?
>
>2)  Is the Leviton HCA02-10E likely to fix this?  I would
>    think not: while an amplified controller code could
>    blast through some noise, the noise itself could trigger
>    device malfunctions.  Or does the HCA02-10E also
>    attenuate noise?
>
>3)  Should the Leviton 6285 attenuate the noise generated by
>    the old computer monitor along with the noise coming in
>    from outside the apartment, or will I need a separate
>    plug-in filter in addition?
>
>4)  Is there a better way of addressing my noise problems?
>
>
>
>Best wishes to all for a happy Thanksgiving weekend!
>
>
>
>
>-- Alan