Re: Need help with PLC noise problems in a Manhattan (New York City) apartment

["AlanTinNYC" <AlanTinNYC@xxxxxxx>]

Thank you all for your guidance.  To answer some questions/comments:

1)  I'm not an electrician or electrical engineer, but
    I am an audio visual engineer working in Manhattan
    for 20+ years now.  My gut feeling when I saw
    Robert Green's RF recommendation is that in this
    city I don't trust wireless *anything* -- too many
    glitches in both old, tested technologies (wireless
    microphones) to new ones (Nextel GPRS) .  We just
    have too much traffic to keep a local RF system
    reliable.

    I thank Dave Houston for concurring on that, but
    he asks about Insteon.  Isn't Insteon half RF-
    based?  That's why I opted for a more "tried and
    true" X10 solution; we even tested an X10 dimmer
    in our old apartment four blocks away in the same
    neighborhood and had flawless results for two
    months.  I've since learned the hard way that the
    two buildings are not analogous.  :-(

    The other point about Insteon, I think, is that
    it continues sending a command until the receiving
    device acknowledges it.  That might mean that
    during a long noisy period we could see the
    command execute a few hours after it was given.
    But I'm speculating here; I have no hands-on
    experience with Insteon.


2)  I simplified the description of my apartment's
    environment in my last post ("That was SIMPLE,
    Alan???")  It's not just two adjoining apartments
    with a wall knocked down but in fact underwent a
    gut renovation.  Every old branch circuit was
    severed, new lines were run through new walls,
    with new switches, outlets, etc., and one of the
    service panels was upgraded.  I think the mains
    wiring from the basement cutoff breakers may date
    from 1941 but I doubt it; the feeder cable seems
    to be PVC insulated.

    So if we are cross-linked with any neighbors, this
    would happen before service reaches our apartment,
    as all our branch circuit wiring is new.

    But if we are indeed cross-linked with our
    neighbors before the service enters our panels,
    wouldn't a whole-house block or attenuator stop
    or greatly reduce that?  Otherwise, what purpose
    do those devices serve???

3)  When I speak of our lights randomly flickering on
    or off (I chose the wrong word; they don't
    "flicker" but do switch on or off); I did mean
    RANDOM:  there is no recognizable time or
    pattern, i.e., they don't turn off right after
    going on, or vice versa.  It just happens when it
    happens; most of the time I can run over to the
    TesterLinc and see high 120kHz activity but no
    valid X10 codes (lots of bad blocks, though).

4)  When I wrote of "good isolation" between our two
    service panels, I used the signal generated by our
    Active Home Pro (CM15A) and the TesterLinc
    meter:  without the attenuators now in place,
    signals generated on one phase of one service
    panel could be detected by devices on both phases
    of both service panels.  This was the case even
    with a PZZ01 installed in each panel.

    But with the 6285 installed, I could not operate
    devices or meter anything on the other panel from
    the one the CM15A was plugged into.  We tested
    both panels that way, and they do appear to be
    isolated from each other.

5)  My method of measuring noise levels:  using
    Mode 4 of the TesterLinc ("120kHz Activity"), I
    can see Quality Counts of around 50, or 80, or 120
    at various noisy times.  This usually does not
    change as I switch branch breakers off.  The one
    time I saw the Quality Count drop when I switched
    off a branch circuit, I checked everything
    plugged into the branch.  That's how I found the
    noisy PC monitor the other night.

    I plug the meter into an outlet with no other
    resistors (appliances, x10 devices, etc) on that
    branch.  Of course, when I shut that breaker, the
    meter goes dead.  But there is nothing else on
    that branch that would generate any signal or
    noise.

    As per my electrician's and my understanding of
    Leviton's written instructions, the filter is
    installed on a separate pair of 15 amp circuit
    breakers.  So when I switch the filter "off", the
    other branches stay on, including the TesterLinc's
    meter, but the filter's branches (one for each
    phase) are switched off.  During relatively quiet
    times, the Quality Count may jump from 000 or 001
    to the 20s, 30s or higher when I switch the filter
    off.  That's how it's supposed to work.  But
    during peak noisy times, switching off the
    breakers feeding the 6285 cuts the Quality Count
    from around 120 down to around 60.  That's
    opposite of how it's supposed to work.

    But based on feedback I'm getting from Robert
    Green and Dave Houston, I suspect I don't have my
    6285s installed properly.  (See below, very bottom
    of this post.)

6)  My only controller device at this time is the
    CM15A.  When it transmits codes, I see Quality
    Counts of around 50 - 60.  That's at the low end
    of the Quality Count during our noisy evenings, as
    I mentioned above (count can be from the 50s to
    the 120s).

    All of my dimmers are X10 RSW17 or companion RSW19
    slave switches.  No other modules at this time,
    but if this goes well I will add 2 or 3 plug-in
    dimmers -- all for incandescent lights (no
    fluorescents, CFLs, halogen low voltage
    transformers, etc.)

    We are at this time transceiving only House Code
    L. We switched from House Code G within the first
    week of our problems, before we bought the tester
    and started serious troubleshooting.

7)  Regarding using multiple HCA02-10E amplifiers in a
    single home:  Leviton in fact specifies that if
    there are sub-panels, an amplifier is required at
    each one.  So I don't think that separate
    HCA02-10Es at each of two main panels would be a
    problem, but I'm not spending anything on them
    until we deem them necessary.

8)  This whole building has been solely residential
    since it was built.  Not even doctors' offices
    on the ground floor or commercial storefronts.



I think that addresses the comments & questions posed so far.  But both
Robert Green and Dave Houston mention stuff that bring me to doubt my
filter installation:

Following Leviton's instructions, the filter is installed on two poles
of a 15 amp breakers:

  ----------------------------------------------------
  |                                                  |
  |         |               |                     |  |
  |       L1|             L2|                     |N |
  |         |               |                     |  |
  |   -------------   -------------               |  |
  |   |           |   |           |               |  |
  |   | BREAKER A |   | BREAKER B |               |  |
  |   |    (1)    |   |    (2)    |               |  |
  |   -------------   -------------               |  |
  |   |           |   |           |-----|    |----|  |
  |   | BREAKER B |   | BREAKER A |    --------   |  |
  |   |    (3)    |   |    (4)    |    |      |   |  |
  |   -------------   -------------    | 6285 |   |  |
  |   |           |   |           |    |      |   |  |
  |   | BREAKER A |   | BREAKER B |    --------   |  |
  |   |    (5)    |   |    (6)    |-----|    |----|  |
  |   -------------   -------------               |  |
  |   |           |   |           |               |  |
  |   | BREAKER B |   | BREAKER A |               |  |
  |   |    (7)    |   |    (8)    |               |  |
  |   -------------   -------------               |  |
  |   |   (etc.)  |   |   (etc.)  |               |  |
  \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

This is how mine are installed.  At first I couldn't see how this would
filter *all* incoming noise, i.e., the branch circuits on breakers 4
and 6 are filtered, but wouldn't the noise bypass the filter on the
other branch circuits?  (I mentioned earlier I'm an audio visual
engineer.  If we apply a bandwidth filter or echo canceler to a channel
of a mixing board, the other channels remain unfiltered.  To filter the
whole board we would need to filter its line input or mixed output.)

But I'm assuming the instructions are correct and the 6285 functions as
a big "signal sucker" in close proximity to the other branches.  In
addition, the instructions specify that the filter be wired to a 15 amp
double-pole breaker (or two single pole breakers) to meet NEC spec.
Doesn't that mean it must be on its own branch circuits?

And wouldn't this mean that if there is noise generated on one of my
branches internally (like my old PC monitor), the 6285 would suck it
up?

But Robert points out that if I shut off the filter, "all circuits it
was filtering should be dead."  And Dave points out that "the 6285 only
blocks signal or noise from passing in or out of your apartment's
wiring."

This suggests that the 6285 should be installed prior to the branch
circuits, not in parallel with them.  But that would require something
far greater than a 15 amp breaker.


Does anyone have experience with this filter and can advise me on its
correct installation?  Or do I have it installed correctly?  If it's
installed correctly, why would my "noise level", defined as a Quality
Count on a TesterLinc, sometimes double when breakers 4 & 6 (in the
above illustration) are switched off, and at all other times be reduced
to almost zero when the same breakers are switched off?



Thanks again, and regards to all.


-- Alan T. in NYC