Re: Panel grounding

[nick markowitz <nmarkowitz@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Dec 13, 7:13=A0pm, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Dec 13, 6:50=A0pm, Effenpig1 <dirtyspicev...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 13, 6:33=A0pm, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 13, 2:49=A0pm, "Kid" <k...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > "tourman" <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:b3c7c123-86b8-4de2-9c98-fbc2ee313077@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=
m...
> > > > On Dec 13, 10:25 am, nick markowitz <nmarkow...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Dec 13, 9:47 am, "Kid" <k...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > > > > > "tourman" <robercampb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>
> > > > > >news:7e9334a2-056d-4dbe-bc6c-e4ec70a81829@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=
s.com...
> > > > > > RHC: Yeah, I agree with you. I keep precise statistics on servi=
ce
> > > > > > work. With over 1000 panels in service, I have had to replace a=
 total
> > > > > > of 8 boards due to electrical surges damaging the panel in 15 y=
ears.
> > > > > > Had I installed the Elk grounding unit for everyone, that would=
 have
> > > > > > been a cost of over $30,000 with limited payback. I prefer to s=
pend
> > > > > > the extra money on upgraded keypads and upgraded pet motions fo=
r
> > > > > > everyone, and deal with dead panels as they happen (at $50 a po=
p plus
> > > > > > cost of a service call). This with a severe lightning strike pr=
oblem
> > > > > > in parts of our city being a known fact as well...
>
> > > > > > BTW, two of those damaged panels were at one rural customer loc=
ation,
> > > > > > and both within a week of each other. I guess the telephone com=
pany
> > > > > > plant was poorly grounded. This was early on, and It took me tw=
ice to
> > > > > > learn....:((
>
> > > > > > I have a customer that had been hit twice before I put the elk =
unit on.
> > > > > > his
> > > > > > house is on a granite outcrop and he apparently can.t get a ver=
y good
> > > > > > ground. on the third hit the elk unit blew out knocking out the=
 phone
> > > > > > line.
> > > > > > but the panel board was ok. all I had to do was replace the elk=
 unit.
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > much difference between the price of the elk unit and a new boa=
rd,
> > > > > > though.
> > > > > > made me wonder if it was really worth it but it was easier to r=
eplace
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > elk unit than rewire a new board. if the panel was like the old=
 moose
> > > > > > where
> > > > > > you could just pop a board on without touching the wiring I mig=
ht think
> > > > > > twice.
>
> > > > > Im dealing with commercial fire and high end combo fire/burg pane=
ls
> > > > > and the panels have to work its a life safety issue
> > > > > and we get plenty of lightning and high wind storms, brown outs ,
> > > > > poles hit etc here in Pa. so the protection is well worth it $25.=
00 to
> > > > > save upwards of several thousand dollars.
>
> > > > > Have customers who had direct hits and there buildings were saved=
 as
> > > > > well as vast majority of equipment was saved Vs other buildings h=
it
> > > > > around here that went up in flames go figure.
> > > > > It is just like the $100.00- 3 phase power protectors I install o=
n
> > > > > machines etc which saves thousands of dollars in motor replacemen=
t.
>
> > > > RHC: I don't disagree with you Nick. It's just like everything else=
 in
> > > > business....it's cost versus gain. Your life saving situations are
> > > > precisely where any and all protection is worth every penny. But fo=
r
> > > > "low end" residential systems, where every nickel spent is under
> > > > question by the customer, it might even "break" the sale !!!! It's =
not
> > > > cost effective in these situations to do so from any perspective wh=
en
> > > > so few systems are affected.....
>
> > > > plus there is no quarantee when it comes to lightening. =A0it can j=
ust as
> > > > easily blow out the protection and the panel.
>
> > > Another reason i do not do residential.
> > > no money in it.
> > > lets see do 20 residential systems to make what i do on high end
> > > integrated commercial real tough one there.
>
> > I guess that depends on how you look at it. You could also spin it to
> > say you could do 20 small residential systems in the same time it
> > takes to do one high end integrated commercial system, and collect RMR
> > from all 20 of those accounts indefinitely.
>
> > But for me the choice is easy since their is virtually no demand for
> > high end commercial systems in my service area.
>
> > I have a hard time believing that you would convince any small, mostly
> > residential/light commercial dealer with a decent number of accounts
> > that there is " no money in it ". =A0I guess it would all depend on eac=
h
> > individuals perception how much money "no money" is.
>
> I have the advantage of not having to rely on RMR on accounts I make
> money both installs and service plus I offer services no one else can
> on the integration end . Since I am cross trained in electronics ,
> electrician and refrigeration
> I can offer some very unique designed systems.
> I could step away from alarms today and make money selling telco/data
> services, commercial sound /paging and intercom ,electrical/trouble
> shooting services and =A0electrical mechanical design services you
> should see the custom built 12/24 DC and 220/480 VAC =A0control systems
> I build for people.
> =A0and =A0never touch an alarm panel. Plus I am a Broadcast engineer i
> could just work in that field full time if i wanted to.
> I was fortunate enough 30 yrs ago to see the steel mills were going
> down around here so I went to every trade school and class i could get
> my hands on I figured this way i would always have work which was a
> good thing.
> Alarms are just part of the services I can offer a customer. So I do
> not go out and bid against alarm company's customers come looking for
> me because the custom work I can do that no one else can. Yet idiots
> around here think I am stealing work from them when it is work they
> can not do. I am not even in the phone book and do not advertise.
>
> Ask Al Colombo from SSI Magazine he has seen a lot of my stuff.

Your right about some inspectors. most of the ones I work with know
the code and we work together .
to meet the code .
the ones who are assholes get reported to the state.