Re: Quality Ademco Engineering

["Roland Moore" <roland@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

> No, I just would like professionals to keep their word or not give it.

I wish manufacturers would take that message to heart. I been buried by
their broken promises.

> I installed Radionics (Bar Reader Programmer 5100 I believe, panels we
> used were 8012, 8112, ) but they sold a Fire DACT called the Notifier 911
> (Not to be confused with the Moose 911) So that is one thing you are Wrong
> about.

Well I was talking about today and not when dinosaurs walked the Earth. For
the record the D8012 used the 5000 programmer and it would "hang" on the
panel. It used a 5010 to burn customer text into PROM chips. There were only
eight zones and a few lines of programming.
The D8112 version E, G, G1, G2 used the 5100 (Wanda) programmer. More zones,
POPITS, RAM II etc. More training was needed then, but there were still
fewer options that the current G series panels. On G series you can use a
5200 programmer but most BCSDs use RPS.
G series panels do require 3 day training. And yes Joe Lamontange still
teaches it. I have found him to be a good instructor. Joe has been with
Bosch so long that even though he is a bit of a maverick, Bosch still puts
up with him (unlike his ex wives). Dean Kugler is a good instructor too. No
matter what happened in the days of the 5100 programmer, there are enough
folks that want to be Bosch dealers today that watching a video would cut it
for training. You can get certified on the new easy series panels by going
on line, but not much else.

 >Please, give me a break, I
> taught a class to a dealer just today that had the Bosch Logo everywhere
> and had to cover closed loop, open loop, series and parallel circuits and
> the difference between dry contacts and open collector outputs. Where were
> the superior, truck equipped techs then.
>
> Give me a break, My cow died, so I don't need your bull.

I don't need yours either. If a BCSD was getting training on your gear, I'd
bet he hadn't met his quota and had the "boot" letter from Bosh in his files
already, especially if he was as lame as you claim. Honeywell is just his
back up hump, you know just like every whore has. What gear do you have that
Bosch doesn't? Let me see Bosch has the entire BVIP line. Where are your
video encoders? Or yes, the DVM that looks like re-branded Axis maybe, just
like the re-branded Mercury panels? Oh wait, you have to be a NexWatch guy
and get trained I bet! And Northern Computers Access Control? Yes there is a
priceless piece of gear to go with the rest of the NexWatch stuff. DVM edge
encoding? Yes. Edge recording? Nope! ANR? No again. Even your top of the
line stuff is bottom of the barrel.
This industry is moving in an IT direction. Although it is important to know
basic electronics, a good understanding of IT is becoming very important as
well. Those type classes are available at most community colleges as well as
the training in basic electronics important to the alarm industry.


"Seccon1" <seccon1@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:agVUh.1335$QH3.779@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "Roland Moore" <roland@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:46230f60$0$16743$4c368faf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>>> Wonder how many "Beta" products are just sitting around in stock rooms
>>> and
>>> basements.
>
>
>>
>> Okay, so now you want them all back?
>
> No, I just would like professionals to keep their word or not give it.
>
>>
>> >I drive to
>>> jobsites and training appointments every weekday, typically 4 days (and
>>> nights) out each week and the guys that put this stuff in on the vast
>>> majority have no previous training or even entry level education to
>>> prepare them for the job. The I read here how it is the manufacturer's
>>> fault.
>>
>> As long as any manufacturer makes their products available through
>> distribution, then the trunk slammer headaches you describe are going to
>> be the result. If you want to see the quality of techs using your brand
>
> So why does Bosch sell sensors through distribution, It's been a while
> since I installed Radionics (Bar Reader Programmer 5100 I believe, panels
> we used were 8012, 8112, ) but they sold a Fire DACT called the Notifier
> 911 (Not to be confused with the Moose 911) So that is one thing you are
> Wrong about.
>
>> improve, there are many things you could do on your end. Some companies
>> like Bosch, DMP, Verint, (to name just a few) refuse to sell their
>> product to anyone that has not PASSED (not just attended) a training
>> course on the
>
> Bull, I sat through Joe Lamontange's classes in Atlanta and if your techs
> could not pass the class they still got the pretty little certificate. All
> your company had to do was send folks to Marrietta GA, (Roy Thurston was
> the rep. then  and if you could not attend but Radionics wanted your
> business bad enough they would send you Jim Kelly's video instead.
>
> Please, you clearly do not know what your preferred vender does.
>
>> product. Another technique used by companies that have product available
>> through distribution (like American Dynamics) is to offer a better
>> discount level on the product to companies that send their employees to
>> training. I know that you have training, I have not been to effective
>> Honeywell Security
>
> I do not know what ADI Expo class limited to 2 hours you have attended and
> called it a technical training but I will stack any training presentation
> and material that we provide against whatever is available.
>
> Unlike others here, I will not pretend to be "All Knowing" But I have
> installed, serviced, run a CS, worked for manufacturers (through 4
> acquisitions) and distribution. I doubt seriously you can teach me much
> little man!
>
>
>> training; comparing it to other vendor's training. In many cases the
>> training seemed far more sales oriented than technical. There are more
>> ways than these to help solve the tech problem for sure, but until I see
>> at least ONE being tried by your company I find it hard to believe
>> Honeywell Security is being  proactive or even serious about your
>> complaints. The fear of declining sales or market share erosion seems to
>> stop any real action on addressing the problem. To me this problem you
>> describe remains firmly the manufacturer's fault. Reason? NOT ALL
>> MANUFACTURERS HAVE THIS PROBLEM. ONLY THE ONES THAT CATER TO THE TRUNK
>> SLAMMER MARKET DO,  LIKE HONEYWELL SECURITY AND DSC.
>
> What accredited tech school program specifically supports this industry?
> Besides the program through Lincoln Technical Ins. (5 campus locations)
> there is no place that and individual can go to specificly learn this
> industry. Even the CEDIA approved EST program does not equip. the average
> tech. But every year, owners with attitudes much like yours throw the new
> hires to the job and say "here is the manual". Please, give me a break, I
> taught a class to a dealer just today that had the Bosch Logo everywhere
> and had to cover closed loop, open loop, series and parallel circuits and
> the difference between dry contacts and open collector outputs. Where were
> the superior, truck equiped techs then.
>
> Give me a break, My cow died, so I don't need your bull.
>
>>
>> "Seccon1" <seccon1@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:W1yUh.52$013.32@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Please see compatible list/ Non compatible list on web link My Webtech
>>> at the Honeywell Security website.
>>>
>>> Nomen is wrong, it is all there in a list, Please use it as it was put
>>> there for you.
>>>
>>> as to the recall we actually had a field fix but did not like trusting
>>> it to field personnel so we changed the boards.
>>> Remember please we did not sun set the analog service, your Congress
>>> did. And to help with the problem with offer a rebate for the old units
>>> as well as competitive products
>>>
>>> It may interest you to know that on a national Beta test that ended 2
>>> weeks ago, another GSM product was shipped to dealers all over the
>>> country. Of the 75 units shipped, less than half were installed and
>>> registered as the dealers agreed they would.
>>>
>>> Wonder how many "Beta" products are just sitting around in stock rooms
>>> and basements.
>>>
>>> But then everyone wants it sooner, and they do not want any problems
>>> once they get it.
>>>
>>> I guess Nomen flipped my switch as every day I and my team members
>>> receive calls from many folks that don't care enough to even read a
>>> manual and feel they are just entitled to be walked through whatever,
>>> and then want to abuse us when lack of preparation on their part causes
>>> an issue. I drive to jobsites and training appointments every weekday,
>>> typically 4 days (and nights) out each week and the guys that put this
>>> stuff in on the vast majority have no previous training or even entry
>>> level education to prepare them for the job. The I read here how it is
>>> the manufacturer's fault.
>>>
>>> Guess I will catch some grief for responding but hey, I have writen the
>>> truth about how I feel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Nomen Nescio" <nobody@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> news:e17e5a599bf57c98f4707b18dcc902d9@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Mark Leuck wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>As far as I know the XMP wouldn't work with either 6139 or 6160 anyway.
>>>>>And
>>>>>I don't consider that much of an oops when the vast majority of the
>>>>>later
>>>>>stuff will, I've run into maybe 1 XMPT2's in my life.
>>>>
>>>> The 4140XMPT2 was the predecessor of the Vista 50.  There are lots of
>>>> them
>>>> in the field.  From what J. Barnes says, the 6160 doesn't work with the
>>>> Vista 50 either.  They work fine with a 6139.
>>>>
>>>> The 6139 keypads work fine with the 4140XMP panels.  They also work
>>>> with
>>>> the Vista 40.  I'm guessing neither one works with the 6160.
>>>>
>>>> I have two complaints here.  First, backward compatibility is a pretty
>>>> obvious thing to do.  But my main bitch is, none of these problems are
>>>> mentioned in the instructions.  You don't find out about them until
>>>> it's
>>>> time to replace a keypad, and then, oh shit, they gave me a bad keypad.
>>>> Oh
>>>> no they idn't, the keypad is fine.
>>>>
>>>> Make that three complaints.  The fine engineering staff at Ademco still
>>>> hasn't figured out a way to copy a program from an older panel type to
>>>> a
>>>> newer panel type.  So when you have to replace that bad keypad with a
>>>> 6160,
>>>> you find that means you get to replace the panel too, and you have to
>>>> program the new panel from scratch.   None of the program information
>>>> from
>>>> that XMPT2 can be copied to the new Vista 50P you have to install, even
>>>> though the programs are very similar.
>>>>
>>>> How to waste an entire day on what was supposed to be replacing a bad
>>>> keypad.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>