Re: Thinking of installing myself...

[Mike Sokoly <secure15@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Robert L Bass wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 23:01:23 -0500, Mike Sokoly <secure15@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>>Robert L Bass wrote:
>>
>>>You can DIY if you don't mind spending a little time learning about the various
>>>options and how/where to use them.  It's not rocket science.  The wiring is 2
>>>and 4-conductor stuff.
>>
>>Perhpas some knowledge of NFPA 70, Ohms and Kirchoff's Laws and
>>Resistance and Voltage Drop would help. Proper wire sizing and Load
>>calculation for battery Backup comes in to play, also.
>
>
> The only things he needs to know about NFPA72 for a DIY residential alarm are
> were to put smoke detectors and where and how loud the sirens need to be.  He'd
> need to know Ohms laws to calculate wire sizes if the job was a large,
> commercial structure.  I've installed hundreds of residential systems and smoke
> detectors were *always* wired with 18/4 (I use it even for 2-conductor smokes
> just in case I need an extra loop later).  Burg circuits invariably use 22/4
> (same rule of thumb with 2-wire magnetic sensors).  Transformers and sirens use
> 18-gauge, stranded cable.  The ground wire is usually 14-gauge, stranded with a
> green jacket.  Like I said before, this isn't rocket science.
oh so the reason the manufacturers instuctions tell you to calculate
battery load is only there to wipe your ass with?

>
>
>>Do you understand the technologies and how and where
>>to properly locate the devices?
>
>
> It's pretty simple stuff.  Insert magnetic contacts in door and window frames.
> Install pet resistant motion detectors in corners facing into the room (ie, not
> at the windows) and not facing onto stairs or furniture onto which Fido is
> likely to jump when the postman passes by.  Install glass breaks (if using
> these) on any wall or ceiling opposite or adjacent to protected
So it's not neccessary to understand whether a PIR works better across
the detector beam or that a microwave detector works better towards and
away? Just put em in the corner cause all perps walk to the corner!
No need to know what the range of the glassbreak is- ignor the part
where the manufacturer says test with THEIR tester. Heavy curtains on
the windows- Nah won't affect them just put em on the opposite wall.

> Install a minimum of one smoke on every living level (ie, not the attic or
> garage).  Place one inside each bedroom (new construction).  Place another
> outside the bedrooms and within 12 feet of each bedroom door.  Stay outside and
> 5' or more away from a bathroom with tub or shower and kitchen /laundry rooms.
Ah, in NY its within 4 feet-but then again he's a homeowner, he doesn't
need to follow any rules. I don't know about Brazil, but up here you had
better put them where NFPA 72 says- or you don't get a C.O.
>
> If the furnace is separated from the rest of the basement, install an ROR-135
> (not required but good to do) there.  Install a smoke at the top of every
> stairway but at the bottom of the basement stairs.  Some locations can serve
> more than one rule.  For example, if the 2nd floor bedroom hallway isn't very
> long you can install one smoke there to fulfill the per floor, top of stairs and
> outside bedroom requirements.
Agreed
>
>
>>If you do then go ahead- consider any False Alarm Prevention?
>
>
> Now he does.  False alarm prevention might best handled by someone other than an
> alarm installer.  The industry standard has been 98% false alarms for years.
> The problem is compound -- poor quality equipment, bad installation practices
> and lack of proper client training.  The latter is apparently the greatest issue
> since the vast majority of false alarms are caused by user error.
So you don't sell anything but "Quality" equipment? Or is all if it "poor"?
You validate my point- proper client training. Ditto for many so called
"Installers" too.
>
> One of the advantages of DIY is that the client becomes much better educated
> about his alarm system, how it works and how to use it, than he would if he paid
> a professional to install it for him.  It's somewhat analogous to learning to
> get around a strange city.  When I started spending time in Brazil the first
> thing I did was buy a car.  Salvador is an ancient city and the winding streets
> are confusing even to the locals.  So I bought a map, asked directions from
> people who have been here for a few years when necessary and started out.  In
> short order I got to know my way around town better than many locals (who
> invariably ride buses or taxis).
>
>
>>>You can also install smoke, heat and carbon monoxide
>>>detectors if those are a concern.
>>
>>Be careful- Are you aware of the wiring requirements?

>
>
> I explained that in one short paragraph above.
Oh, so he doesn't have to be concerned with proper wire size for long
runs, whether or not to use FPL wire for smokes and heats- twisted pair
22/2 is fine.

>
>
>>What about how they wil be reported to Central Station
>>if you choose that?
>
>
> Most of the alarm systems I sell online to do-it-yourselfers have software to
> facilitate programming.  The selection of whether to be monitored is the
> client's choice.  With a professional installation the choice is usually limited
> to "Do you want it monitored" or "Go away.  We won't help you."
No, most UL Central Stations Won't monitor a system installed by an
unqualified individual- somthing about liability- is he properly trained
and qualified to be able to change programming? Might fing that in NFPA
70- sorry don't need to follow that!
>
>
>>>There are protocols to follow when installing fire
>>>protection but the ones that apply to most single
>>>family residential alarms are easily learned in a
>>>few minutes.
>>
>>Most Local Laws allow you to install Battery-Type detectors
>>in your own home- some prohibit "System -Type" to be
>>installed by ANYONE othe than A Licensed Alarm Professional.
>
>
> That is categorically false.  Please don't muddy a good thread with that sort of
> false claim.
Care to substantiate that here in NY?
>
> In the USA anyone can install smoke detectors, system or stand-alone, in his own
> home.  Only those who do this for pay are required to be licensed.  The
> licensing statutes are designed to protect the public from unscrupulous or
> incompetent contractors.  They are not intended to prevent people from doing
> their own work.
You are categorically incorrect! Apparently you are ignorant of Local
Codes in some jurisdictions-
>
>
>>If your considering 3rd Party monitoring- who will you
>>get to monitor a system that they didn't install-or the
>>liabilities that may occur?
>
>
> There are numerous options.  One of them is a company called NextAlarm.  They
> offer UL-listed monitoring through a network of associated monitoring facilities
> around the country.  IIRC, they charge $8.99 a month (less than a third what
> many professional installers charge) for the same services the pros use.
Some people will do anything for a $!
>
> Note that most independent alarm installing companies do not operate their own
> central stations.  The work is farmed out to large, regional central stations
> (aka "third party monitoring" companies).  The CS charges the dealer anywhere
> from $2 to $7 a month for their services.  The CS usually provides the dealer
> with professionally drawn contracts which protect both dealer and CS from
> liability if they screw up.  Some will accept the dealer's own contract if it
> has the proper verbiage.  The dealers then resell the service which costs them
> $2-7 a month for anywhere between $20 and $40 a month to the public.
>
> This makes a very nice source of recurring monthly revenue for the dealer.
> After a few years a dealer may have several thousand accounts, each profiting
> him $13 to $38 a month.  This makes a very strong incentive for the dealer to
> discourage people from DIY and for insisting that all their installations
> include a multi-year monitoring contract.
Not all dealers insist on multi-year contracts.
>
> The above isn't a slam against dealers.  It's just a factual explanation of the
> monitoring profit center and why it motivates those who sell installed systems.
> The problem for the consumer is that the dealer may or may not be very talented.
> His crew might be well-trained or they might be hacks picked up at the
> unemployment line.  The problem is that the customer has no way to know whether
> the dealer in his living room is a good guy or a dolt.  Most are decent, honest
> people and most try their best to provide good service.  Others unfortunately
> are quite the opposite.

>
> At least with DIY the customer knows that the person doing the installation is
> only interested in doing the best job he can.
Yes he may be interested in doing the best he can, but does he have the
knowledge to do it and do it correctly?

>
> --
>
> Regards,
> Robert L Bass
>
> Bass Burglar Alarms
> The Online DIY Store
> http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
>
> --
>
> Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups.