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RE: Megaman LED 7w GU10 Warm White
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the very verbose explanation... I might have to re-read a few
ti=
me to fully understand but it has made things slightly clearer.
marcus
From: ukha_d@xxxxxxx [mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx] On Behalf Of K=
evin Hawkins
Sent: 17 January 2014 15:21
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Megaman LED 7w GU10 Warm White
Correct.. the continual current drawn through the lamp isn't needed at all
=
for DIN rail dimmers as they derive their operational power from the C-Bus
=
network and their dimmer circuitry is powered directly from the mains. So
=
they have no need to power themselves via the connected lamp Actually
in=
practice there is probably still a leakage current but it's not actually =
required in the same sense. A dimmer channel could be designed to totally
i=
solate itself from the bulb at 0% brightness by using a relay - and some
o=
ther manufacturers dimmers e.g Crestron do actually implement this. The
l=
eakage current is one of many reasons why you should always disconnect
powe=
r before working on the wiring even when a channel is switched off.
More=
importantly though it also avoids someone switching it on ;-).
Inside, the actual design of the dimmer triac circuitry has been made wi=
th a minimum load expectation - as they were originally expected to be
driv=
ing filament lamps. Importantly they also have a max capacitance rating -
w=
hich is basically the amount they can veer away from being a purely
resist=
ive load like a filament bulb. CFL's and LED lamps , and indeed inductive
=
loads like motors all vary the loading on the dimmer and hence you chose
le=
ading or trailing edge or of latter times the universal dimmer which is
far=
more tolerant. You may sometimes see this referred to as power factor b=
ecause it causes the voltage supplied to a circuit to be out of phase with
=
the current drawn. e.g. the max current might be drawn at half voltage
rat=
her than full voltage. Capacitors and Inductors can basically store
electri=
city and release it backwards when things change.. and on an AC circuit
the=
voltage is always changing.
This loading often impacts the linearity of the dimmers at low settings w=
here the triacs need a certain hold current to stay on. They can turn off
=
prematurely, not turn on or flicker and eventually fail.
There are quite a few C-Bus forum threads re this for more info - and th=
e capacitive loading is often as limiting as the minimal load / wattage of
=
the lamps.
K
On 17/01/2014 14:29, Marcus Warrington wrote:
>
>
> Kevin,
>
>
>
> Ahhh.. complete misunderstanding on my part then.. Doh!
>
>
>
> I'm still slightly confused why a DIN style LD11 needs a
minimum
> load they DO require a Live and Neutral so shouldn't be
drawing
> anything through the lamp?
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> *From:*ukha_d@xxxxxxx [mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx]
*On
> Behalf Of *Kevin Hawkins *Sent:* 17 January 2014 12:40 *To:*
> ukha_d@xxxxxxx<mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx> *Subject:* Re=
: [ukha_d] Megaman LED 7w
GU10
> Warm White
>
> I believe what you are referring to might be a X2 capacitor
that is
> connected in parallel with the lamps to provide a leakage
path.
> C-Bus wireless , X10 and other 'no neutral required' dimmers
draw
> power via the connected circuit and so a small current always
passes
> through the lamps even when off. This causes some CFL and LED
bulbs
> to flicker/flash all the time when turned off. The X2
capacitor
> provides a leakage path that stops the flickering but doesn't
> actually substitute for a real load so it doesn't help meet
minimum
> load requirements for a standard C-Bus dimmer.
>
> I too am interested in these bulbs and saw that listing on
Amazon...
> There's so much discussion and opinion on the various options
that
> it would be good to sort out the better ones.
>
> K
>
> On 17/01/2014 10:40, Marcus Warrington wrote:
>> Are these the ones? =A3130 for 10,
>>
http://www.amazon.co.uk/DIMMABLE-ENERGY-SAVING-BRANDED-PROMOTION/dp/B00BIN2=
S44
>
>>
>
>> If they work with CBUS dimmer does that mean they should
also work
>> with X10 LD11 dimmers (subject to minimum load) ?
>>
>> Googling Z-Wave dimmers the other day I saw that they
appear have a
>> little "load" dongle that can be wired in parallel to
the
light,
>> can anything like this be done for X10. What I mean is
can I add a
>> dummy load to the circuit to bring it up to the minimum
load when
>> using low wattage (LED) lights ?
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Tah=
oma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks
for the very verbose=
explanation… I might have to re-read a few time to fully
understand =
but it has made things slightly
clearer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Tah=
oma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
;Arial","sans-serif";color:#548DD4">marcus</span></b><span
s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Tah=
oma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
=
lang=3D"EN-US"
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",&qu=
ot;sans-serif""> ukha_d@xxxxxxx [mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx=
]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kevin Hawkins<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 17 January 2014 15:21<br>
<b>To:</b> ukha_d@xxxxxxx<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [ukha_d] Megaman LED 7w GU10 Warm
White<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
<p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg">
<div id=3D"ygrp-msg">
<div id=3D"ygrp-text">
<p>Correct.. the continual current drawn through the lamp isn't
needed at a=
ll for DIN rail dimmers as they derive their operational power from the
C-B=
us network and their dimmer circuitry is powered directly from the
mains.&n=
bsp; So they have no need to power themselves
via the connected lamp Actually in
practice there =
is probably still a leakage current but it's not actually required in the
s=
ame sense. A dimmer channel could be designed to totally isolate itself
fro=
m the bulb at 0% brightness by using a relay - and
some other manufacturers dimmers e.g Crestron do actually implement this. =
The leakage current is one of many reasons why you should always
dis=
connect power before working on the wiring even when a channel is switched
=
off. More importantly though it also
avoids someone switching it on ;-).<br>
<br>
Inside, the actual design of the dimmer triac
circuitry has be=
en made with a minimum load expectation - as they were originally expected
=
to be driving filament lamps. Importantly they also have a max capacitance
=
rating - which is basically the amount they
can veer away from being a purely resistive load like a filament
bul=
b. CFL's and LED lamps , and indeed inductive loads like motors
all v=
ary the loading on the dimmer and hence you chose leading or trailing edge
=
or of latter times the universal dimmer which
is far more tolerant. You may sometimes see
this referre=
d to as power factor because it causes the voltage supplied to a circuit
to=
be out of phase with the current drawn. e.g. the max current
might b=
e drawn at half voltage rather than full voltage. Capacitors
and Inductors can basically store electricity and release it backwards whe=
n things change.. and on an AC circuit the voltage is always
changing.<br>
<br>
This loading often impacts the linearity of the dimmers at low
setti=
ngs where the triacs need a certain hold current to stay on. They
can=
turn off prematurely, not turn on or flicker and eventually fail.<br>
<br>
There are quite a few C-Bus forum threads re this for more
info =
; - and the capacitive loading is often as limiting as the minimal load /
w=
attage of the lamps.<br>
<br>
K<br>
<br>
On 17/01/2014 14:29, Marcus Warrington wrote:<br>
> <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
Kevin,<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
Ahhh.. complete misunderstandin=
g on my part then.. Doh!<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
I’m still slightly confus=
ed why a DIN style LD11 needs a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
minimum<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> > load
they DO require a Live and Neut=
ral so shouldn’t be<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
drawing<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
anything through the lamp?<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
Marcus<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
*From:*ukha_d@xxxxxxx [=
<a href=3D"mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx";>mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx</a>=
]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> *On<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> > Behalf
Of *Kevin Hawkins *Sent:* 17 =
January 2014 12:40 *To:*<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> > <a
href=3D"mailto:ukha_d@yahoogroups=
.com">ukha_d@xxxxxxx</a> *Subject:* Re: [ukha_d] Megaman LED
7w<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p> GU10<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> > Warm
White<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
I believe what you are referrin=
g to might be a X2 capacitor<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> that is
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
connected in parallel with the =
lamps to provide a leakage<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> path.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> > C-Bus
wireless , X10 and other 'no n=
eutral required' dimmers<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> draw<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> > power
via the connected circuit and =
so a small current always<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
passes<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
through the lamps even when off. Thi=
s causes some CFL and LED<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> bulbs<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> > to
flicker/flash all the time when t=
urned off. The X2<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
capacitor<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
provides a leakage path that stops t=
he flickering but doesn't<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
actually substitute for a real load =
so it doesn't help meet<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
minimum<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> > load
requirements for a standard C-B=
us dimmer.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
I too am interested in these bu=
lbs and saw that listing on<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> Amazon...
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
There's so much discussion and =
opinion on the various options<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> that<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> > it
would be good to sort out the bet=
ter ones.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
K<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
On 17/01/2014 10:40, Marcus War=
rington wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
>> Are these the ones? =A3130 for 1=
0, <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><a href=3D"http://www.amazon.co.uk/DIMMABLE-ENERGY-SAVING-BRANDED-PROMOT=
ION/dp/B00BIN2S44">http://www.amazon.co.uk/DIMMABLE-ENERGY-SAVING-BRANDED-P=
ROMOTION/dp/B00BIN2S44</a><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
>> <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >>
If they work with CBUS dimm=
er does that mean they should<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> also
work<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
>> with X10 LD11 dimmers (subject t=
o minimum load) ?<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
>> <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >>
Googling Z-Wave dimmers the=
other day I saw that they<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> appear have
a<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
>> little "load" dongle t=
hat can be wired in parallel to the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
light,<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
>> can anything like this be done f=
or X10. What I mean is<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> can I add
a<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
>> dummy load to the circuit to bri=
ng it up to the minimum<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> load
when<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
>> using low wattage (LED) lights ?=
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
>> <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >>
Marcus<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
>> <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
-----------------------------------------=
-----------------<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>
>> <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> >
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p
style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"> >
=
<br>
<br>
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