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Re: Megaman LED 7w GU10 Warm White
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Correct.. the continual current drawn through the lamp isn't needed at
all for DIN rail dimmers as they derive their operational power from the
C-Bus network and their dimmer circuitry is powered directly from the
mains. So they have no need to power themselves via the connected
lamp Actually in practice there is probably still a leakage current
but it's not actually required in the same sense. A dimmer channel could
be designed to totally isolate itself from the bulb at 0% brightness by
using a relay - and some other manufacturers dimmers e.g Crestron do
actually implement this. The leakage current is one of many reasons
why you should always disconnect power before working on the wiring even
when a channel is switched off. More importantly though it also
avoids someone switching it on ;-).
Inside, the actual design of the dimmer triac circuitry has been
made with a minimum load expectation - as they were originally expected
to be driving filament lamps. Importantly they also have a max
capacitance rating - which is basically the amount they can veer away
from being a purely resistive load like a filament bulb. CFL's and LED
lamps , and indeed inductive loads like motors all vary the loading on
the dimmer and hence you chose leading or trailing edge or of latter
times the universal dimmer which is far more tolerant. You may
sometimes see this referred to as power factor because it causes the
voltage supplied to a circuit to be out of phase with the current drawn.
e.g. the max current might be drawn at half voltage rather than full
voltage. Capacitors and Inductors can basically store electricity and
release it backwards when things change.. and on an AC circuit the
voltage is always changing.
This loading often impacts the linearity of the dimmers at low
settings where the triacs need a certain hold current to stay on. They
can turn off prematurely, not turn on or flicker and eventually fail.
There are quite a few C-Bus forum threads re this for more info -
and the capacitive loading is often as limiting as the minimal load /
wattage of the lamps.
K
On 17/01/2014 14:29, Marcus Warrington wrote:
>
>
> Kevin,
>
>
>
> Ahhh.. complete misunderstanding on my part then.. Doh!
>
>
>
> I'm still slightly confused why a DIN style LD11 needs a minimum
> load they DO require a Live and Neutral so shouldn't be drawing
> anything through the lamp?
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> *From:*ukha_d@xxxxxxx [mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx] *On
> Behalf Of *Kevin Hawkins *Sent:* 17 January 2014 12:40 *To:*
> ukha_d@xxxxxxx *Subject:* Re: [ukha_d] Megaman LED 7w GU10
> Warm White
>
> I believe what you are referring to might be a X2 capacitor that is
> connected in parallel with the lamps to provide a leakage path.
> C-Bus wireless , X10 and other 'no neutral required' dimmers draw
> power via the connected circuit and so a small current always passes
> through the lamps even when off. This causes some CFL and LED bulbs
> to flicker/flash all the time when turned off. The X2 capacitor
> provides a leakage path that stops the flickering but doesn't
> actually substitute for a real load so it doesn't help meet minimum
> load requirements for a standard C-Bus dimmer.
>
> I too am interested in these bulbs and saw that listing on Amazon...
> There's so much discussion and opinion on the various options that
> it would be good to sort out the better ones.
>
> K
>
> On 17/01/2014 10:40, Marcus Warrington wrote:
>> Are these the ones? £130 for 10,
>>
http://www.amazon.co.uk/DIMMABLE-ENERGY-SAVING-BRANDED-PROMOTION/dp/B00BIN2S44
>
>>
>
>> If they work with CBUS dimmer does that mean they should also work
>> with X10 LD11 dimmers (subject to minimum load) ?
>>
>> Googling Z-Wave dimmers the other day I saw that they appear have
a
>> little "load" dongle that can be wired in parallel to
the light,
>> can anything like this be done for X10. What I mean is can I add a
>> dummy load to the circuit to bring it up to the minimum load when
>> using low wattage (LED) lights ?
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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Correct.. the continual current drawn through the lamp isn't needed
at all for DIN rail dimmers as they derive their operational power
from the C-Bus network and their dimmer circuitry is powered
directly from the mains. So they have no need to power themselves
via the connected lamp Actually in
practice there is probably
still a leakage current but it's not actually required in the same
sense. A dimmer channel could be designed to totally isolate itself
from the bulb at 0% brightness by using a relay - and some other
manufacturers dimmers e.g Crestron do actually implement this.
The
leakage current is one of many reasons why you should always
disconnect power before working on the wiring even when a channel is
switched off. More importantly though it also avoids
someone
switching it on ;-).<br>
<br>
Inside, the actual design of the dimmer triac
circuitry has been
made with a minimum load expectation - as they were originally
expected to be driving filament lamps. Importantly they also have a
max capacitance rating - which is basically the amount they can veer
away from being a purely resistive load like a filament
bulb.
CFL's and LED lamps , and indeed inductive loads like motors all
vary the loading on the dimmer and hence you chose leading or
trailing edge or of latter times the universal dimmer which is far
more tolerant. You may sometimes see this
referred to as power
factor because it causes the voltage supplied to a circuit to be out
of phase with the current drawn. e.g. the max current might be
drawn at half voltage rather than full voltage. Capacitors and
Inductors can basically store electricity and release it backwards
when things change.. and on an AC circuit the voltage is always
changing.<br>
<br>
This loading often impacts the linearity of the dimmers at low
settings where the triacs need a certain hold current to stay on.
They can turn off prematurely, not turn on or flicker and eventually
fail.<br>
<br>
There are quite a few C-Bus forum threads re this for more
info -
and the capacitive loading is often as limiting as the minimal load
/ wattage of the lamps.<br>
<br>
K<br>
<br>
On 17/01/2014 14:29, Marcus Warrington wrote:<br>
<span style="white-space: pre;">> <br>
> <br>
> Kevin,<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Ahhh.. complete misunderstanding on my part then.. Doh!<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I’m still slightly confused why a DIN style
LD11 needs a
minimum<br>
> load they DO require a Live and Neutral so shouldn’t be
drawing<br>
> anything through the lamp?<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Marcus<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> *From:*ukha_d@xxxxxxx [<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx";>mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx</a>]
*On<br>
> Behalf Of *Kevin Hawkins *Sent:* 17 January 2014 12:40
*To:*<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx";>ukha_d@xxxxxxx</a>
*Subject:* Re: [ukha_d] Megaman LED 7w
GU10<br>
> Warm White<br>
> <br>
> I believe what you are referring to might be a X2 capacitor
that is <br>
> connected in parallel with the lamps to provide a leakage
path.<br>
> C-Bus wireless , X10 and other 'no neutral required' dimmers
draw<br>
> power via the connected circuit and so a small current always
passes<br>
> through the lamps even when off. This causes some CFL and LED
bulbs<br>
> to flicker/flash all the time when turned off. The X2
capacitor<br>
> provides a leakage path that stops the flickering but
doesn't<br>
> actually substitute for a real load so it doesn't help meet
minimum<br>
> load requirements for a standard C-Bus dimmer.<br>
> <br>
> I too am interested in these bulbs and saw that listing on
Amazon... <br>
> There's so much discussion and opinion on the various options
that<br>
> it would be good to sort out the better ones.<br>
> <br>
> K<br>
> <br>
> On 17/01/2014 10:40, Marcus Warrington wrote:<br>
>> Are these the ones? £130 for 10, <br>
>>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/DIMMABLE-ENERGY-SAVING-BRANDED-PROMOTION/dp/B00BIN2S44";>http://www.amazon.co.uk/DIMMABLE-ENERGY-SAVING-BRANDED-PROMOTION/dp/B00BIN2S44</a><br>
><br>
>> <br>
> <br>
>> If they work with CBUS dimmer does that mean they should
also work<br>
>> with X10 LD11 dimmers (subject to minimum load)
?<br>
>> <br>
>> Googling Z-Wave dimmers the other day I saw that they
appear have a<br>
>> little "load" dongle that can be wired in
parallel to the
light,<br>
>> can anything like this be done for X10. What I mean is
can I add a<br>
>> dummy load to the circuit to bring it up to the minimum
load when<br>
>> using low wattage (LED) lights ?<br>
>> <br>
>> Marcus<br>
>> <br>
>>
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>> <br>
>> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
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