RE: Re: Whole House Rennovation Automation Plans - Have I got it right?

["Paul Gordon" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I do indeed have a great many of the exact systems you are proposing,
and I have them all talking to each other remarkably well.

CBUS - Check. Absolutely rock solid. Integrates very well with Comfort
SONOS - Check. Absolutely rock solid. Integrates quite well with both
Comfort & CBUS, albeit with some PC middleware.
COMFORT - Check. Absolutely rock solid. Integrates very well with CBUS.
KAT5 - Check. Absolutely Rock solid. - No sign of (or likelihood of?)
the switcher ever appearing though... :-(
HOMETRONIC - Next on my list. Hopefully implementation this summer. Also
planning the relay unit to interface to Comfort for (very) basic state
signaling.

I *understand* the points & reservations about mixing security &
HA,
although I don't necessarily agree with all of them. In terms of NACOSS
compliance for an alarm system, you have to give up so much of the
intelligence & nice integration features that it becomes pointless
(IMO)
to have a HA capable alarm anyway. - If you *need* the compliance for
insurance purposes, I think it would be far better to install a fully
compliant, but "dumb" alarm system for a fraction of the price.

However, I have long felt that security & automation are two sides of
the same coin... - turning lights on when you're away to simulate
occupancy for example... - is that security, or is it automation? There
are *sooo* many aspects of automation that absolutely only make sense
when taken in context with the security state, that for me, it was a
no-brainer: Comfort, and utilise the full gamut of automation and
integration possibilities that this provides.

I don't have a Homevision, so I can't comment on the friendliness of the
programming, or the automation capabilities in terms of the
"space"
available. Comfort certainly has enough programmability (responses, IR
commands, counters, timers, variables, etc. etc. etc.) for my needs.

I don't especially agree with the assertion about the programming
environment for Comfort these days either. Certainly in the early days,
programming Comfort virtually required learning machine code. Nowadays,
it's no harder than any other programming environment that I've come
across, complete with full human-friendly programming constructs that
we've all seen before (IF, THEN, ELSE, etc.) There's also a programming
wizard that builds response code for you by picking commands off a
context-sensitive list. I now find it very easy to program Comfort.

Granted, you *DO* have to apply a bit of common sense, - this *IS* your
security system after all, so obviously you need to be careful not to
compromise your security with your programming. This I feel, does only
demand a modicum of common sense though; it's not a massive worry IMO. -
In nearly 10 years with Comfort in my house, I think I can honestly say
I've never had an issue where my automation programming has caused any
problems with security. (Me drilling through cables is another matter
though!)

As an example, I just really quickly fired up Comfigurator and produced
the Comfort code for the first of the examples from your original
email....
<SNIP>
If  Hours >= 16 Then				!If after 4PM
If  SecurityMode = SecurityOff Then	!If alarm is unset
If Counter Counter020 = 0 Then	!if lounge light is OFF
CBUS On 2 1  	! Turn on light A
CBUS On 2 2  	! Turn on light B
CBUS On 2 3  	! Turn on light C
End If
End If
End If
<END SNIP>

That is genuine Comfigurator code, which could be uploaded to Comfort as
is, and will work. - look simple enough? (Everything after the ! is a
comment). Also bear in mind that I've left all the internal object names
at their defaults, - for easier readability, I *could* have changed the
name of Counter020 for example to reflect that it is the lounge light.

Comfort does also talk to other CBUS applications beyond the ubiquitous
lighting application (56). The Comfort UCM is able to place commands on
the CBUS network addressed to any application address. (Although I
haven't actually tried this functionality). So, comfort can set any CBUS
group address, on any application, to any level. It can also specify
ramp rates. Conversely, it is also instantly aware of any CBUS group
changing state or changing level, and can react accordingly, and
instigate a whole bunch of other actions in response, complete with all
the logic capabilities at its disposal. - what more is there?

Comfort also integrates very well with a PC, via a standard UCM (either
RS232 or Ethernet). Using this interface it's possible to open up
comfort (and thus everything else connected to it), to a full, rich PC
environment, so you can integrate it with the web, IM, email, etc. etc.
I use Homeseer for this additional layer, which has a very good
integration plugin for Comfort. This is the component that enables me to
integrate SONOS into the mix... SONOS talks uPnP, which neither Comfort
nor CBUS understand, but Windows does... Thus I go from a CBUS switch,
into Comfort, then into Homeseer, which then issues SONOS commands. -
thus I use CBUS switches to start/stop playback in various rooms.

As a little example of this integration; if I'm out on the road & want
to phone SWMBO at home, - but she's on the phone to her mother (so will
be ages!)... I can pop into MSN Messenger on my laptop/mobile, send a
"speak" command, and have whatever I want spoken via TTS on the
SONOS
zone in whichever room SWMBO happens to be in... MSN integrates with
Homeseer, so I start an IM conversation with my Homeseer machine, send a
"speak" command, Homeseer can then reference the Comfort sensor
information to see which room last detected any movement, then switches
the SONOS zoneplayer in that room to the line input connected to the
Homeseer PC, speaks my text, then sets everything back to how it was
before...

Homeseer also provides a web interface that allows access and control
over all the CBUS, SONOS, and Comfort devices, - although for obvious
reasons access to comfort via the web interface is deliberately limited!

There is shortly also to be a new touchscreen component to Homeseer
which may be of interest. (Due August timeframe at the moment)

HTH

Paul G.

Phew! - I hadn't realized how long I'd waffled on for!



-----Original Message-----
From: ukha_d@xxxxxxx [mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Ben McCormack
Sent: 16 April 2008 13:58
To: UKHA Group
Subject: [ukha_d] Re: Whole House Rennovation Automation Plans - Have I
got it right?

Kevin

With regards to HDMI and Matrix Switching.

My plans are to use Apple TVs local to each TV for downloaded content.
With this we don't
really do DVDs any more.

Then I will transmit TIVO signal around the house with KAT5 Modules.

This should satisfy Video distribution.


I can see your point about Comfort - Is the Alarm system the right place
for HA Control.

Insurance is not a concern, I am not planning to receive any insurance
discount because of
the alarm. The 5% I will save is not enough benefit if I forget to set
the alarm one day.

So if I took some of the logic out of Comfort I would need to replicate
this in Homevision.
Are you still producing the CBUS Gateways?

Ben







--- In ukha_d@xxxxxxx, Kevin Hawkins <yahoogroupskh@...> wrote:
>
> Hi ben,
>
> You might also want to consider how you might distribute HDMI signals
> and also the matrix switching of the video sources  ?
>
> Yes, you will likely need some scheduler / logical  controller...
either
> standalone or a PC based application.  PaulG has a very similar setup
to
> your proposal...  I do like the approach you are taking of having
> standalone systems that work independently - and do what they are
> intended to do really well (HomeTronic, Comfort, C-Bus, Sonos etc) -
the
> challenge comes with integrating them all.
>
> ATM The HV controller is really good value (half price) .  The three
> nice things about HV are that it is very capable but easy to
understand,
> 100% dependable and of course it runs standalone without a PC so
> available 24/7.    The restriction for your setup is essentially that
it
> was designed around an X10 lighting model.  It does now support
'Custom
> Lighting' which could allow you [ via a C-Bus gateway ;-) ] to link in

> with your C-Bus setup.  It wont interact with Comfort too easily
either
> although you can use inputs and outputs to synch alarm status of
course.
>
> Comfort is also of course well capable of 24/7 independent operation
> although outiside of the alarm functionality it is a little 'tight' in

> how you have to code things. By this I mean that you need a bit of
> experience and it's more programmatic (lower level language) with
> limited space than say HV.  However you would have tight
alarm/lighting
> integration. For me it's a bit against the grain to impose too much HA

> control within what is essentially your alarm system but it's a
> dependable and capable system.   I just wouldn't want to be constantly

> revising programs in an alarm system I depend on.   You may need to
> consider any insurance aspects as well.   I haven't looked at current
> functionality of the Comfort/C-Bus connectivity - for example the
> ability to handle other C-Bus applications apart from lighting.(??)
> C-Bus now has many applications in use eg 'trigger' 'sensors'
'heating'
> 'security' etc etc..   I believe Comfort still links to C-Bus via
their
> application group levels synched to internal Comfort variables.
>
> There are of course the C-Bus automation engines like the PAC
controller
> , touchscreens and their software applications like HomeGate.
Depends
> on how wide a control you want from one system, in terms of the
devices
> and functionality encompassed.  This is where it gets interesting -
> getting many disparate systems talking to each other and all
manageable
> from one HA controller.  These standalone systems have gained their
> reputations as best of breed often because they are somewhat closed to

> external integration.
>
>     Kevin
>
>
>   Ben McCormack wrote:
> >
> > All
> >
> > I am getting to the final stages of planning a complete house
> > renovation including full
> > rewire, as part of this I intend to automate the property and try
and
> > integrate systems as
> > much as possible.
> >
> > I was hoping to have my plans checked by the knowledge of the
group!
> >
> > Audio - 5 Zones
> > -------------
> > Sonos running from Mini Mac - 5 Zone Players and 4 Remotes
> >
> > Video
> > -------
> > Multiple Hacked Apple TVs
> > KAT5 Units for Limited Tivo Distribution
> >
> > Lighting
> > ----------
> > CBUS Dimmers with Neo Switches in most rooms
> >
> > Alarm
> > --------
> > Comfort with CBUS Module
> > PIR in each room
> >
> > Heating Control
> > -------------
> > Hometronic with Relay input module to Comfort
> >
> > IR
> > ----
> > I would like to be able to achieve 2 things
> > 1. IR Distribution around the house ie for Remote Tivo
> > 2. Use IR to control some systems ie When PIR in the Kitchen is
> > activated then send an IR
> > command to turn the TV in the kitchen on (Just an example)
> >
> > For IR Distribution I will use either Xantech or Keene
> >
> > For IR control and intelligence I was planning to use Comfort.
Would

> > this be the right thing
> > to use?
> >
> > Cabling
> > -------
> > Planning multiple CAT5e runs to each room in the house wired back
to

> > Patch Panels in the
> > loft where most of the equipment will be located.
> >
> > Temperature Monitoring
> > ---------------------
> > Independent of the Hometronic system I may want to add
temperature
> > monitoring to each
> > room. I am intend to run Cat5 cables to each room so I could use
> > 1-Wire sensors.
> >
> > System Intelligence
> > ----------------
> >
> > One question that I have is regarding where the intelligence
should
sit?
> > I would like to be able to do things similar to this
> >
> > If the time is later than 16:00
> > AND
> > Alarm is unset
> > AND
> > No lights are on in the lounge
> > THEN
> > Turn on Lights A,B and C in the Lounge
> >
> > If a specific IR command is sent
> > AND
> > Alarm is unset
> > AND
> > Time is after 09:00
> > THEN
> > Turn Heating on in the Office
> > AND
> > Send IR command to switch TV on
> >
> > Can Comfort handle this sort of Logic processing? Is there any
other

> > logic engine I should
> > be considering? HomeVision?
> >
> > System Control
> > -------------
> >
> > Webcontrol of all systems is essential
> > Ideally I would like to have touchscreen but these will probably
be
> > too expensive unless
> > someone has a cheaper alternative?
> >
> > CCTV
> > -----
> > Not in the current plans. Could use IP Cameras at a later date.
> > Considering if a Video door phone integrated into comfort may be
an
idea
> >
> > So, are these plans any good? Have I missed anything obvious out?
> >
> > Any input will be appreciated
> >
> > Ben
> >
> >
>




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