Re: store system w 4-8 cameras ?

["Roland Moore" <roland@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

The DiBos Micro has support for 6 (or 12) cameras and would work fine for
small mom and pop store. It wouldn't break their budget either.

"Matt Ion" <soundy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:9fwTg.70321$5R2.7716@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Yeah, just keep in mind this thread started about wanting a setup for a
> small mom-and-pop store.  They don't need or want a $50,000
> industrial-stength video system.
>
> J. <jsloud2001 wrote:
>>
>> Well said.  As a matter of fact, I just got a phone call from a
>> 600,000 sq ft plant/ warehouse where we did the fire alarm about a
>> year ago.  The owner's buddy set them up with two home built DVR's and
>> a bunch of bullet cameras.  We've now been asked to evaluate and
>> replace their equipment.  They've got 32 channels of low end video
>> from $80 bullet cameras running over RG-59 to two problem prone,
>> unreliable home made PC's with capture cards.  Some of those RG runs
>> have to be 1500 feet or so.  I amazed there's any video at all.  We'll
>> replace it with proper commercial/ industrial grade AD, Bosch, and/or
>> GE equipment and the customer will get what he needs.
>>
>> On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 07:45:44 GMT, "Roland Moore" <roland@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It is easy to see the PC in many DVR units. That said some DVR units are
>>>more PC than others. One beef (of too many to mention) I have with
>>>VideoInsight  is that they won't create a COTS spec for their grabber
>>>card and create a Windows XP Embedded OS to go with it (they won't even
>>>suggest a policy editor template for OS modification or even msconfig).
>>>The developers of the product were honest enough to tell me that they
>>>lack the sales volume to be able to even begin justify such a move. And a
>>>100% fully automated recovery CD? Not on your life. Auto throttle
>>>bandwith with QoS? That's always coming in the next release.
>>>Many people get confused about the term embedded OS and say one thing
>>>when they actually mean another. Nearly all build it yourself units run
>>>on some form of Windows OS. No matter what kind of Policy Editor you use
>>>it will still be that version of Windows at the shell. Many DVR units use
>>>Windows XP Embedded (more information here
>>>http://msdn.microsoft.com/embedded/windowsxpembedded/default.aspx )
>>>others use an embedded OS. According to the Microsoft Embedded site
>>>Microsoft Windows XP Embedded provides the ability to build a customized
>>>operating system image which contains the components and technologies
>>>that are appropriate for your specific device. One thing you should never
>>>do is apply XP Pro patches to XP Embedded. If you can't tell one from the
>>>other the splash screen after the POST shows XP Embedded and there is
>>>always the tiny XP Embedded sticker (versus the much larger XP Pro
>>>sticker) on the case to point out the difference. Some Integral
>>>Technologies units and Bosch DiBos units use Windows XP Embedded, some
>>>units like Dedicated Micros use an embedded OS (at least that is their
>>>description). Some units like Dallmeier and March Networks use a Linux
>>>OS, although not the same distribution. Some units like the Intellex use
>>>a highly modified Windows OS that is almost XP Embedded (on version 4.x),
>>>but it is really just an odd duck. I'll say it again, if you're a
>>>computer guy discovering CCTV then getting a grabber card and building
>>>you're own unit seems cool. If you're a security guy, or more
>>>specifically a systems integrator, you won't have time to build your own.
>>>The puny margins in building your own DVR would never be worth it. If you
>>>are thinking about supporting an up the Coax PTZ (Bosch PTZ units,
>>>Panasonic PTZ units or Pelco PTZ units to name a few) with Bilinx (Bosch)
>>>or using BiPhase (Bosch) to support a different protocol, no build it
>>>yourself unit would ever be an option. And we haven't even mentioned
>>>access control integration, POS integration or an Aegis interface
>>>(developed by KapLogic Corporation). If you are using professional camera
>>>gear like Bosch Auto Domes or AD Ultra  few cusomers are going to
>>>consider it a plus to cheap out and have you drag in some weird ass home
>>>built PC no matter how you try to promote it as a DVR. If you do a dozen
>>>or so simple mostly fixed camera DVR deployments a year that never
>>>interface with anything else maybe you have found your calling with build
>>>it yourself. When you walk into a major sports arena or giant medical
>>>center and think about a DVR solution to deploy the build it yourself
>>>option never crosses your mind, ever! Well, if you're going to check
>>>yourself in at the Psych ward in medical center maybe. In my opinion if
>>>you ever aspire to serve those sorts of large customers in the future in
>>>that type of upper end market segment you should not afflict your current
>>>customers with the crippled limitations of build it yourself, leave that
>>>for the box sale guys or the lame IT guy with too much time and no
>>>budget.
>>>
>>>"Matt Ion" <soundy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>news:9yaTg.70351$R63.30733@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>>>J. <jsloud2001 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 16:29:00 GMT, Matt Ion <soundy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>You have some sort of philosophical issues with PC-based DVRs?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>In a word, yes.  I deal with a lot of medium to larger size facilities
>>>>>that almost
>>>>>always have their DVR's connected to a network.  If you do not connect
>>>>>to a network, then you lose a lot of the functionality of having a
>>>>>digital solution.  When you use a Windows PC as a DVR, you bring along
>>>>>all of the baggage associated with  Windows.  Each time a new exploit
>>>>>is found, Windows must be updated to control it.  If you connect to a
>>>>>network without keeping up to date on security patches and service
>>>>>packs, the machine will become vunerable.  Add to this fact that a PC
>>>>>based machine can and will be used by associates for other purposes
>>>>>and reliability suffers even more.
>>>>
>>>>Umm, that's not a failing of PC-based DVRs... that's a failing of
>>>>WINDOWS-based DVRs on an unsecured or improperly secured network.  Or
>>>>more specifically, a failing of an IT department.  If a "medium to
>>>>larger size" company doesn't have a firewall between their network and
>>>>the internet, and the proper security in place. ALL their computers are
>>>>volnerable, not just their DVR.  If they DO have a firewall, the systems
>>>>are pretty much invulnerable to direct outside access... and as long as
>>>>all the other systems are kept up-to-date with security measures
>>>>(patches etc.) and aren't infected, there's no real way for the DVR to
>>>>be affected unless someone's surfing the web on it... in which case you
>>>>have other issues.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>There are two types of PC based machines.  Factory built DVR's that
>>>>>come as a unit complete with a warranty vs. a user built off the shelf
>>>>>PC with a capture card and user installed software.  I have no problem
>>>>>with the former.  We've used DVR's and NVR's from AD, Bosch, Pelco,
>>>>>Verint, etc that are PC based and relatively free of issues, although
>>>>>embedded recorders such as GE/ Kalatel units do seem to be more
>>>>>reliable.  My problem is with user built DVR's where some guy takes an
>>>>>off-the-shelf Dell and puts a capture card and some software on it and
>>>>>calls it a DVR.  Windows, although improved in recent years, is still
>>>>>not the most stable platform for running critical applications.
>>>>
>>>>Out of all the Vigil and VideoInsight DVRs I've installed and/or
>>>>serviced, I've only seen TWO actually fail because of Windows issues,
>>>>and both, though designed and built ONLY as DVRs, were used by their
>>>>owners or employees onsite for surfing the web (one guy even installed a
>>>>couple games, since the DVR machine was more powerful than his office
>>>>PC). Again, that's not a failing of PC-based designs, that's a failing
>>>>of STUPID PEOPLE.  And as we know, hydrogen and stupidity are the two
>>>>most common elements in the universe.
>>>>
>>>>I've had ONE PC-based DVR fail because the CPU fan died and the whole
>>>>thing overheated... any others that have died have been because of
>>>>failing hard drives, which can happen to embedded machines just as well
>>>>as PCs.
>>>>
>>>>Oh, and one where the video card died because the new owners on the site
>>>>decided to test the backup generator by just throwing the switch on the
>>>>main building power, and generated a nice power spike.  They killed the
>>>>system drive in the replacement machine by doing the same thing again
>>>>two months later, despite LOUD warnings (unheeded) to put the thing on a
>>>>UPS. But again, that's just human stupidity; I've seen just as many
>>>>standalone DVRs, as well as MUXs, VCRs and cameras, killed by power
>>>>spikes.
>>>>
>>>>PC-based DVRs are no more or less INHERENTLY reliable than any other
>>>>type of video-recording system... they may be easier for (l)users to
>>>>fuck up, but that's a side-effect of ease-of-use.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>A small list of problems I've seen with PC based units never
>>>>>encountered with embedded DVRs:
>>>>>
>>>>>Version conflicts
>>>>
>>>>With what?  I've seen the Vigil client complain if it's connecting to a
>>>>different revision of server, but it still works.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Security patches
>>>>>Network worms
>>>>
>>>>Shouldn't be necessary on a properly secured network.  Vigil machines
>>>>still run on Win2K; my VI machines run on a pretty bare-bones XP with
>>>>all unnecessary services disabled.  And not so much an issue with
>>>>non-Windows-based (Linux, BSD, and others) DVRs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Guards using box to surf the internet (viruses, spyware, malware, etc)
>>>>
>>>>There's no accounting for the human factor.  How about this one:
>>>>late-night employee decided to review footage for the hot blonde who was
>>>>just at the counter, the forgets to restart recording, because the cheap
>>>>standalone unit is a simplex design.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Windows update incompatibility
>>>>
>>>>So don't use automatic updates.  Not necessary on a properly secured
>>>>network. And again, not an issue on non-Windows-based DVRs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Blue screen of death
>>>>
>>>>Never had one of those on a DVR.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Power interupt/ shutdown issues
>>>>
>>>>That can affect ANY recording device, PC, standalone, or VCR.
>>>>
>>>>In fact, PCs are able to BETTER handle those instances if they're on a
>>>>UPS with the proper support installed, because a UPS can trigger a clean
>>>>shutdown of the PC if the battery runs low after power has been off a
>>>>while.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Software conflicts caused by other programs running on PC
>>>>
>>>>There shouldn't be any other programs running... again, a human failing,
>>>>not a design issue, and not really a problem anyway with non-Windows
>>>>machines.  Even with, it's not that difficult to lock down the machine
>>>>to prevent installation and use of other software.  Capture's machines
>>>>run their own shell over the Windows desktop and lock out most key
>>>>combinations, such as ctrl-esc, strl-alt-del, etc.  With
>>>>password-protected shutdown, it's virtually impossible for an
>>>>unauthorized user to access the desktop or run any other software.
>>>>
>>>
>>