Re: Re: Serial protocol questions

["Frank Mc Alinden" <fmcalind@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Neil

> 1) Yes I would have a go at the main controller, as yet I do not have
ANY
> xPL experience at all but, so what, live and learn.

Might be an idea to download the xPL Specs from the main site and have a
read.....

> 2) PLED ?? LCD,S.......no - Please explain?? Do you have a link ??

No link off hand.....they dont use a backlit..the background is black and
the text is green and they have a much beter viewing angle.....Got them
from
Switches Plus here in Melbourne .

Frank



----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Wrightson" <neilw@xxxxxxx>
To: <ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 6:26 PM
Subject: RE: [ukha_xpl] Re: Serial protocol questions


>
> Hi Frank,
>
> 1) Yes I would have a go at the main controller, as yet I do not have
ANY
> xPL experience at all but, so what, live and learn.
>
> 2) PLED ?? LCD,S.......no - Please explain?? Do you have a link ??
>
> 3) What !!! No CBUS ;-))
>     I like the idea of the 485 network being autonomous, does not have
to
be
> connected to a PC. Perhaps the Network controller could have a 3rd
serial
> port for connection to CBus?
>
> 4) Personally not too keen to develop 240v kit - I was looking at
placing
> these terminals right beside the normal room ON/OFF switch. Easy to
parallel
> up the switch contacts to the terminal. If it is on the PCB, let it be
up
to
> the individual as to what they wire up
>
> 5) Why is 24v dc required ???? I was thinking of having an on board
12V
> switching regulator for driving standard security PIR's as well as for
an
> Audio amp. Unregulated 24V allows for voltage drop on the cables.
>
> 6) Even the terminals (Slaves) will be quite busy. They will have to
> handle -
>     - High speed comms to Master
>     - RTC functionality
>     - IR Tx & Rx
>     - Sound
>     - I/O interfacing
>     - Personnel ID interfacing
>     All multitasking!!
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Neil Wrightson.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Mc Alinden [mailto:fmcalind@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: Monday, 24 January 2005 5:54 PM
> To: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ukha_xpl] Re: Serial protocol questions
>
>
>
> Hi Neil
>
> Nice list there ;-))
>
>
>
> > 2) I don't want to start another mine is better than yours
discussion,
> but,
> > I use AVR's :) I have a great compiler AVRCo with true
multitasking etc
>
> Ah No!! not another avr Programmer ;-))....Actually i did get some avr
> development kit but it was too much to learn C and a new Processor so
i
went
> back to my pics and ...asm ;-)....
>
>
> > 3) I think that a dedicated 485 network controller will be
required. I
> think
> > the 485 comms will probably run about 38400 baud.
> >     A 16MHz AVR will happily look after this.
> >     The network controller will pass and receive all state
changes to
the
> PC
> > as well as heart beats for each device.
> >     Comms to the PC could be 9600.
>
> So would you be up for having a go at the main controller ???
>
*************************************************************************
> Would need to get some feedback from the guys on the list and see if
firstly
> they are interested in using an RS485 xPL Network  and secondly the
sort
of
> things they would like .......
> So Cmon guys some feedback please................
>
**************************************************************************
>   Hardware Solutions for above
> >         Display,
> > 16*2 LCD with LED backlight OR maybe a small graphic LCD, could
display
> > small icons for
>
> Have you seen those PLED ?? LCD,S.......no backlit and viewing angle
is
qute
> good........
>
>
> >         Light Control
> > either 240V relay or triac, triac allows dimming, great for those
wee
> stops
> > in the night
>
> What !!! No CBUS ;-))........Personally not too keen to develope 240v
kit
> !!!.......
>
> > Universal TV remote. I can currently decode Sony or RC5 signals
>
> I have done Sony decoding in asm, Sony and standard nec format in
> Picbasic.....
>
>
>
>
> >         Power Supply and Signal
> >             I suggest that we use CAT5
> >             Power - 2 Pairs 1 pair for 0V and one pair for +24V.
> >             Comms Signal  - 1 Pair
> >             Audio from PC - 1 Pair
>
> Cat5 is a good idea although im starting to run out of points ....I
use
them
> for my ir hardware and probe system and now the temp sensors......
>
> Why is 24v dc required ????
>
> All sounds good
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neil Wrightson" <neilw@xxxxxxx>
> To: <ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 5:28 PM
> Subject: RE: [ukha_xpl] Re: Serial protocol questions
>
>
> >
> > Hi Guys,
> >
> > 1) I'm all for a combined project.
> >
> > 2) I don't want to start another mine is better than yours
discussion,
> but,
> > I use AVR's :) I have a great compiler AVRCo with true
multitasking etc
> >
> > 3) I think that a dedicated 485 network controller will be
required. I
> think
> > the 485 comms will probably run about 38400 baud.
> >     A 16MHz AVR will happily look after this.
> >     The network controller will pass and receive all state
changes to
the
> PC
> > as well as heart beats for each device.
> >     Comms to the PC could be 9600.
> >
> > 4) I envisage that there be at least two types of room
controllers
> (Perhaps
> > we should start by settling on some names for these things)
> >     a) Bedroom/kitchen/Living area Controller wish list
> >         Display,
> >         Personnel Switches for lights, sound muting etc,
> >         Data entry method, Set room alarm clock time etc Sleep
time for
> > lighting etc
> >         IR Transmitter, Turn telly off when I fall asleep in bed,
turn
> > ceiling fan off etc etc
> >         Personal ID method
> >         Sound
> >         Movement sensor interface
> >         Switch inputs for door & window reed switches
> >
> >     b) Basic room as in garage/toilet/bathroom wish list
> >         Personnel Switches for lights etc,
> >         Sound
> >         Movement sensor interface
> >         Switch inputs for door & window reed switches
> >         Note - This is to be a cheaper version, no display only
beeper
for
> > sound alerts, maybe a IR receiver for configuration ??
> >
> > Hardware Solutions for above
> >         Display,
> > 16*2 LCD with LED backlight OR maybe a small graphic LCD, could
display
> > small icons for
> >
> > you have email, voice messages, phone callers etc.
> >         Personnel Switches for lights etc,
> 2..4
> > Tactile switches I.e. small PCB mount
> >         Light Control
> > either 240V relay or triac, triac allows dimming, great for those
wee
> stops
> > in the night
> >         Data entry method,
> > Universal TV remote. I can currently decode Sony or RC5 signals
> >         IR Transmitter
> > IR led on controller as well as capability to add an external IR
led
else
> > where in the room
> >
> > for better coverage if needed, I.e. Living room with external LED
for
> Stereo
> > etc.
> >         Personal ID method
> > Dallas 1 wire ibutton, A lot cheaper & smaller than RFID!
> >         Sound
> > 2 Types, 1) Standard beeper. 2) Optional 1W speaker with sound
relaying
> from
> > controller Pc
> >
> > Probably a separate optional PCB.
> >         Movement sensor interface                                
   As
> > suggested either a integrated unit actually on the controller or
a
> separate
> > security PIR
> >         Switch inputs for door & window reed switches       
Standard
> style
> > of inputs on a micro 5..12V tolerant.
> >
> >         Power Supply and Signal
> >             I suggest that we use CAT5
> >             Power - 2 Pairs 1 pair for 0V and one pair for +24V.
> >             Comms Signal  - 1 Pair
> >             Audio from PC - 1 Pair
> >             If we try to use the standard pin outs for power over
Ethernet
> > and data signals, nothing will be damaged if
> >             a wrong device is plugged in somewhere.
> >             Although, I did see these devices as being panel
mounted on
> the
> > walls.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Neil Wrightson.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frank Mc Alinden [mailto:fmcalind@xxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Monday, 24 January 2005 12:29 PM
> > To: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: [ukha_xpl] Re: Serial protocol questions
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Ben
> >             I was also thinking of having a little box in each
room
which
> > has an lcd display , rfid reader and a small pir head for
Occupancy
> > detection.....Would be good to throw a few ideas around ...and 
as you
say
> > have a common rs485 protocol.......
> >
> > BTW..........Are you on the piclist ???
> >
> > Frank
> > .
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "DynamoBen" <ben@xxxxxxx>
> > To: <ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:56 AM
> > Subject: RE: [ukha_xpl] Re: Serial protocol questions
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Neil,
> > >
> > > Your protocol design is very similar to what I had
originally planned
> > prior
> > > to stumbling across the xpl documentation.
> > >
> > > You made and interesting point that I had not thought about
in my
> design.
> > I
> > > had assumed that on the PC side of things I would just drop
in an
> > > RS232->RS485 converter and call it done. Now I'm
contemplating using a
> pic
> > > as a master and making the door locations slaves.
> > > Would that makes sense? Is it worth the extra work?
> > >
> > > Additionally, I think what you're working on and what I'm
working on
> could
> > > be very complementary. Is it worthwhile to work together on
system
> layout
> > > and protocol so that both our devices "play" on
the same RS485
network?
> I
> > > think in doing that we will indirectly create somewhat of an
xpl
> standard
> > in
> > > that one plug-in can be created for all RS485 devices. That
plug-in
> would
> > > convert RS485 message into xpl network messages. Is my
thinking
correct?
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Neil Wrightson [mailto:neilw@xxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:06 AM
> > > To: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> > > Subject: RE: [ukha_xpl] Re: Serial protocol questions
> > >
> > >
> > > Frank,
> > >
> > > Firstly, I'm not sure if everybody is up to speed on RS485
comms.
RS485
> > uses
> > > 2 wires for the transmission of data. For simplicities sake,
lets
treat
> > the
> > > two wires as one.
> > > As you would appreciate, you cannot typically send and
receive data on
a
> > > single wire at the same time. Thus a master is required that
transmits
> out
> > a
> > > signal, and at the same time slaves are awaiting a signal.
When a
slave
> > > receives a message specifically address to it, it then talks
back to
the
> > > master. The actual RS485 IC's in the master and slaves must
be changed
> > from
> > > Transmission mode to receive and back again for each sent
message.
> > > Basically it goes like this -
> > >
> > > Master
> > > Slave
> > > 1) Set Master RS485 IC to Transmit mode
> > > Set RS485 IC to Receive mode
> > >     (Usually RTS signal on comm port)
> > > 2) Transmit Message to Slave #03
> > > Receive message
> > > 3) Set Master RS485 IC to Receive mode (Usually RTS signal
on comm
port)
> > > If it was for me then process
> > > 4) Wait for message from Slave #03
> > > All of my messages require an acknowledge
> > >     (Usually includes a timeout in case slave #03 does not
respond)
> > > So set RS485 IC to Transmit mode and send message
> > > 5) Optional delay
> > > Set RS485 to Receive mode
> > > 6) Goto 1) or poll extra slaves etc
> > > Wait for next message
> > >
> > >
> > > I use two different protocols depending on the application.
> > > 1) PC to RS485 Devices
> > > The communications are between the PC and the remote RS485
slave
> devices.
> > A
> > > RS232 to RS485 converter is required for the PC.
> > > This converter can be quite simple and does not require any
brains
I.e.
> no
> > > processor.
> > > Although optical isolation at this point is nice (Adds $$$
but not
much)
> > > Basically the comms are as per above sample. The PC must be
able to
> toggle
> > > the RTS line for each transmission. Sounds simple but, the
PC software
> > must
> > > know when the last character has been completely sent out of
the UART
in
> > the
> > > serial interface. Most PC's are at least double buffered, or
even 8 or
> 16
> > > character buffer. So doing something simple in Pascal like
saying
> > send(Ch);
> > > SetRTS(Low); would be guaranteed to not work.
> > > Having said that, the protocol I use is
> > > 1    Stx                        Byte,#02
> > > 2    Addr                      Byte 0..255    Note Generally
RS485
> limits
> > 32
> > > devices to be connected to the bus
> > > 3    Message Length     Byte              Allows messages up
to 256 -
> > > Message size
> > > 4    Command              Byte              I.e.Clear LCD
display,
> Obtain
> > > I/O status etc
> > > 5    Data if any             Variable size based on message
length.
> could
> > be
> > > zero
> > > 6    Checksum             Byte               Checksum of
bytes from
Stx
> to
> > > Checksum location minus 1
> > > 7    Etx                       Byte, #03
> > >
> > > Thus the minimum message sizes is 6 bytes if no extra data
is
> transmitted
> > >
> > >
> > > 2) PC to Dedicated master to slaves
> > > The first part of PC to dedicated master is as per the above
protocol.
> The
> > > big difference here is that the PC to master interface is
RS232, thus
> none
> > > of the waffle with concerns about the RTS handshaking lines
being
> changed
> > > over at the wrong time. Just 3 wires Tx,Rx,0V.
> > > The Master is a separate dedicated micro controller board
that talks
> RS232
> > > to the PC and talks RS485 to the slaves.
> > > Here the protocol is somewhat different because of the
features within
> the
> > > dedicated micros
> > > 1    Address                Byte or Word    - Well not quite
These
> > > particular bytes are actually 9 bits in size
> > > 2    Message Length    Byte
> > > 3    Data                     Variable size based on message
length.
> could
> > > be zero
> > > 4    Checksum
> > >
> > > Good points about this method are that the local RS485
network can be
> very
> > > fast and the master is always aware of all changes. It then
only
passes
> > > state changes to the PC via the RS232 port. Usual delays in
PC's I.e.
> > > disappearing for a second do not effect the RS485 comms.
> > >
> > > Both protocols use an address of 0 (Zero) for general
broadcasting of
> > > messages to all devices. I.e. perform a master reset.
> > >
> > >
> > > In other postings I have made reference to a remote RS485
terminal
with
> > LCD,
> > > keypad, I/O, IR Tx & Rx etc that is under development.
> > > What I plan is that basically this terminal will be a ROOM
terminal
and
> > have
> > > some smart intelligence built in.
> > > I.e.
> > >     I/O Inputs for PIR's (Movement sensor) and door/window
switches
> (These
> > > will be interfaced to the lights for auto light control as
well as
> > security)
> > >     I/O Outputs for Lights, sound etc
> > >     Audio Out - Thinking of relaying HAPC voice
annunciations
> > >     RTC for determining wake up alarms, sleep modes etc.
> > >
> > > My idea is that, even if the HAPC or the RS485 network is
down a
person
> > > should still be able to turn the lights OFF/ON etc NOT have
the house
in
> a
> > > completely shut down mode and stumbling around in the dark.
> > > Here I see that the slave room terminals will need to pass
all state
> > changes
> > > back and forth to the master and to the PC. BUT each slave
must be
able
> to
> > > see an input change I.e. PIR picks up movement and it MUST
then turn
on
> > the
> > > light. It can't wait for it to send a message to the PC
saying
movement
> > and
> > > the PC then respond back with turn on the light.
> > >
> > > All of the above I do now in various forms. To me the
embedded side is
> > easy.
> > > Your PC xPL is a bit different. I could do a separate
windows app
using
> > > Delphi for the xPL IP socket to serial port connection but I
think it
> > would
> > > be better added into xPLHAL or something ???
> > >
> > > Well, time to go to bed. Work tomorrow :(
> > >
> > > Hey Frank, I just noticed your email is bigpond.net.au. Are
you in
AUS?
> > I'm
> > > in the Newcastle region.
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Neil Wrightson.
> > >
> > > From: Frank Mc Alinden [mailto:fmcalind@xxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 6:39 PM
> > > To: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: [ukha_xpl] Re: Serial protocol questions
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Ben
> > >             I was thinking if Neil already has a reasonably
simple and
> > > robust  rs485 protocol for his kit , why not look at that
and take it
> from
> > > there ...???
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <ben@xxxxxxx>
> > > To: <ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 5:52 PM
> > > Subject: [ukha_xpl] Re: Serial protocol questions
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You make several compelling points. I do agree it might
be best to
> > > > have a polling environment.
> > > >
> > > > I do also think that all HA items should share a
similar protocol
> > > > schema. That was the precipitous of my question.
> > > >
> > > > Its sound like the RS485 network should have one
standard protocol,
> > > > possibly similar to that of xpl, and then interface via
a host PC to
> > > > xpl.
> > > >
> > > > So then, what protocol would work best? Is there a
dominant one to
> > > > consider in the HA market?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx, "Neil Wrightson"
<neilw@n...>
wrote:
> > > > > Hi All,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have done a lot of comms work in the past, both
RS232 and RS485.
> > > > > RS485 really has to be a polled environment I.e. a
master with
> > > > polled
> > > > > slaves. I'm only just starting to look at Xpl at
this stage and it
> > > > appears
> > > > > that the heartbeat is a rather critical aspect to
this protocol.
> > > > > I believe that the RS485 master should be aware of
all of it's
> > > > slaves and
> > > > > that the master sends a heartbeat to it's master
xXPLHAL??) for
> > > > its self and
> > > > > each of its slaves.
> > > > > Perhaps xPLHAL should advise the master 485 device
what slaves it
> > > > should be
> > > > > talking to and what there functionality is.
> > > > >
> > > > > To me part of the question is, should the RS485
network try to
> > > > emulate xPL
> > > > > or as suggested just use a proprietary protocol. I
already have
> > > > proprietary
> > > > > protocols in place so this would be easier.
> > > > > But,
> > > > > In my house I do not want to have multiple RS485
networks with
> > > > separate
> > > > > proprietary protocols. I will probably end up
making most of my
own
> > > > > hardware, but who knows I may wish to buy somebody
else's 485
> > > > hardware item
> > > > > I.e. RFID and connect it onto my network. This
wont work if we all
> > > > have
> > > > > separate 485 protocols.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think one of the early on questions is, What is
the master? Is
> > > > it part of
> > > > > xPLHAL I.e. a PC is the master or should there be
a separate
> > > > standalone
> > > > > master that talks to HAL via another serial
connection. If XPLHAL
> > > > is the
> > > > > master we need somebody that can handle the 485
comms on the PC
> > > > I.e. Rx,Tx
> > > > > and a handshake line.
> > > > >
> > > > > By the way, I have already interfaced to RFID
devices. Most
> > > > commercially
> > > > > available RFID devices talk to other equipment via
a 26bit weigand
> > > > > interface.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Neil Wrightson.
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Frank Mc Alinden [mailto:fmcalind@b...]
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 8:08 AM
> > > > > To: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ukha_xpl] Serial protocol questions
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Ben
> > > > >
> > > > >         No one that im aware of has done any xPL
stuff using rs485
> > > > and i
> > > > > have been pondering over the same questions that
you are currently
> > > > asking,
> > > > > as i have some rfid readers and i intend to have a
little xPL
rs485
> > > > > network......
> > > > >
> > > > > > 1) Should I be implementing xpl on this
device via serial?
> > > > >
> > > > > Can be done ok , but each device must generate
hbeats and on a
> > > > rs485 network
> > > > > ,multiple devices could send hbeats at the same
time ..???
> > > > >
> > > > > > 2) What schema(s) should I be using?
> > > > >
> > > > > I would assume the control.basic..Sensor.basic
could be used here
> > > > >
> > > > > > 3) Would it be better to create a proprietary
protocol and have
> > > > > > someone write a plug-in interface to xpl?
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes this is another option and i have done this
with my Probe
> > > > system....
> > > > > You still have the issue of devices sending data
at the same time
> > > > therefore
> > > > > getting corrupted messages unless the app polls
each device on the
> > > > network
> > > > > ...???
> > > > >
> > > > > > 4) What resources are available to use as a
reference beside the
> > > > xpl
> > > > > > official website.
> > > > >
> > > > > No rs485 resources that im aware of ....
> > > > >
> > > > > Frank
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: <ben@b...>
> > > > > To: <ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:24 AM
> > > > > Subject: [ukha_xpl] Serial protocol questions
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am in the midst of a project and was
thinking about making the
> > > > > > device xpl compatible.
> > > > > > The device is a magnetic card reader (credit
card) with and
> > > > onboard
> > > > > > relay to open an electrical door lock. The
idea is you would
> > > > swipe a
> > > > > > credit card this device sends the account
number to a host
> > > > computer
> > > > > > (via RS-485). The host determines if the
account is allowed
> > > > access
> > > > > > and opens or denies access appropriately.
> > > > > > This device is run by a pic microprocessor.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Questions:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) Should I be implementing xpl on this
device via serial?
> > > > > > 2) What schema(s) should I be using?
> > > > > > 3) Would it be better to create a proprietary
protocol and have
> > > > > > someone write a plug-in interface to xpl?
> > > > > > 4) What resources are available to use as a
reference beside the
> > > > xpl
> > > > > > official website.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > xPL Links: http://www.xplproject.org.uk
> <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
> > < http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
>
> > < http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk> 
<
> http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
> >
> > > > < http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk> 
<
> http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
>  <
> > http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk> 
<
> http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
> > >
> > > > > http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com>  <
> http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com> >  <
> http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com>
> > < http://www.xplhal.com
<http://www.xplhal.com> >
>  <
> http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com>  < http://www.xplhal.com
> <http://www.xplhal.com>
>
> > > < http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com>  <
http://www.xplhal.com
> <http://www.xplhal.com>
> > >
> > > > > http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>  <
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
>  <
> > http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>  <
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
> >  <
> > > http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>  <
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
>  <
> > http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>  <
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
> > >
> > > > > > To Post a Message: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> > > > > > To Subscribe:  ukha_xpl-subscribe@xxxxxxx
> > > > > > To Unsubscribe:  ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > xPL Links: http://www.xplproject.org.uk
> <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
> < http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
>
> > < http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk> 
<
> http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
> >
> > > > < http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk> 
<
> http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
>  <
> > http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk> 
<
> http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
> > >
> > > > > http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com>  <
> http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com> >  <
> http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com>
> > < http://www.xplhal.com
<http://www.xplhal.com> >
>  <
> http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com>  < http://www.xplhal.com
> <http://www.xplhal.com>
>
> > > < http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com>  <
http://www.xplhal.com
> <http://www.xplhal.com>
> > >
> > > > http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>  <
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
>  <
> > http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>  <
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
> >
> > > > > < http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>  <
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
>  <
> > http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>  <
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
> > >
> > > > > To Post a Message: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> > > > > To Subscribe:  ukha_xpl-subscribe@xxxxxxx
> > > > > To Unsubscribe:  ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >   _____
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
> > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
>
> > > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
> > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
> >
> > > > > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
> > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
>
> > > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
> > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
> > > > > ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
> > > > > <mailto:ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx?subject=Unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
Yahoo! Terms of
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> > > > > < http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>
> > < http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
<
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
> >
> > > > .
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > xPL Links: http://www.xplproject.org.uk
<http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
> < http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
>
> > < http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk> 
<
> http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
> >
> > > http://www.xplhal.com
<http://www.xplhal.com>  < http://www.xplhal.com
> <http://www.xplhal.com>
>  < http://www.xplhal.com
<http://www.xplhal.com>
> > < http://www.xplhal.com
<http://www.xplhal.com> >
>
> > > http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>  <
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
>  <
> > http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>  <
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
> >
> > > > To Post a Message: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> > > > To Subscribe:  ukha_xpl-subscribe@xxxxxxx
> > > > To Unsubscribe:  ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > xPL Links: http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
> < http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
>
> <
> > http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk> 
<
> http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
> >
> > > http://www.xplhal.com
<http://www.xplhal.com>  < http://www.xplhal.com
> <http://www.xplhal.com>
>  < http://www.xplhal.com
<http://www.xplhal.com>
> > < http://www.xplhal.com
<http://www.xplhal.com> >
>
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
> > < http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk> >
> > > < http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>  <
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
> >
> > > To Post a Message: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> > > To Subscribe:  ukha_xpl-subscribe@xxxxxxx
> > > To Unsubscribe:  ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   _____
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
> > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
>
> > > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
> > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
> > > <mailto:ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx?subject=Unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service
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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
> < http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>
> >
> > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > xPL Links: http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
> < http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
>
> > http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com>  < http://www.xplhal.com
> <http://www.xplhal.com>
>
> > > http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>  <
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
>
> > > To Post a Message: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> > > To Subscribe:  ukha_xpl-subscribe@xxxxxxx
> > > To Unsubscribe:  ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > xPL Links: http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
> < http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
>
> > http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com>  < http://www.xplhal.com
> <http://www.xplhal.com>
>
> > http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>  <
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
>
> > > To Post a Message: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> > > To Subscribe:  ukha_xpl-subscribe@xxxxxxx
> > > To Unsubscribe:  ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > xPL Links: http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
<
> http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
>
> > http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com>  < http://www.xplhal.com
> <http://www.xplhal.com>
>  http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
> <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
> > < http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk> >
> > To Post a Message: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> > To Subscribe:  ukha_xpl-subscribe@xxxxxxx
> > To Unsubscribe:  ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> >   _____
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
> > < http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
>
> >
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
> > <mailto:ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
> > < http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>
> .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > xPL Links: http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
> http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com>
> http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
<http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
> > To Post a Message: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> > To Subscribe:  ukha_xpl-subscribe@xxxxxxx
> > To Unsubscribe:  ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> xPL Links: http://www.xplproject.org.uk <http://www.xplproject.org.uk>
> http://www.xplhal.com <http://www.xplhal.com>  http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
> <http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk>
> To Post a Message: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> To Subscribe:  ukha_xpl-subscribe@xxxxxxx
> To Unsubscribe:  ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_xpl/>
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
> <mailto:ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> xPL Links: http://www.xplproject.org.uk http://www.xplhal.com
http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
> To Post a Message: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
> To Subscribe:  ukha_xpl-subscribe@xxxxxxx
> To Unsubscribe:  ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



xPL Links: http://www.xplproject.org.uk http://www.xplhal.com http://www.xpl.myby.co.uk
To Post a Message: ukha_xpl@xxxxxxx
To Subscribe:  ukha_xpl-subscribe@xxxxxxx
To Unsubscribe:  ukha_xpl-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx