Re: Best approach to HA for lighting control

[James Reed <james@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi

Thanks very much for this, and to all others who replied.

The biggest difficulty is going to be the wiring itself in the short
term. Until I get in there and have a look it's going to be
difficult to know how easy it will be to access the exisiting wiring
so I can tap into it. I may well start with some c-bus wireless
units just to get going, and as I do bigger projects I can add bits
on. I do appreciate the advantages of wired networks though!

As an aside, for those interested in heating I can recommend the
conrad FS20 heating control units. I've got a few of these (and am
planning an expansion) and they are great. Best combination of
direct rad control that I've found and there is great potential for
computer control as well.

James




On 25/05/2012 12:19 AM, Paul Gordon wrote:
>
> *** Disclaimer *** - I am NOT an electrician...
>
> As long as it's safe and compliant with regs, you can locate units
pretty
> much anywhere you want...
>
> Most of the "output" units, - dimmer & relay modules
etc. *are* DIN units=
,
> and are designed for mounting in a DIN enclosure... In my case, I=20
> purchased
> a number of fairly cheap B&Q consumer units.. I have 2 in the
cellar, 2 i=
n
> the loft, and one secured to the back of an office desk in my study -
you
> just need to be able to get the CBUS network cable to the unit to get
it
> communicating, and you *could* supply the power to the module from a
loca=
l
> 13A wall socket - which I have done in the case of the module in my=20
> study...
> - in both other cases the modules are "properly" wired into
either the
> lighting or socket house circuits as appropriate... - A decent DIN=20
> enclosure
> is definitely a help, - as there's quite a lot of commonning (is that
a
> word?) required in the wiring, and it's helpful to have an Earth=20
> common bar,
> and a Neutral common bar...
>
> The choice of relay or dimmer is up to your requirements... I started
off
> with dimmers for most of my lighting circuits, but then I decided
to=20
> change
> as many of my lights as possible to LED bulbs, and as a consequence
I=20
> had to
> change them onto relay modules instead... Relays are also a little
more
> robust; dimmers have more sensitive electronics when can get=20
> damaged... - On
> that topic, I believe it is also a good idea to put an MCB on the
output
> side of each channel (i.e. between the CBUS module & the load),
and=20
> also to
> put an isolation breaker on the input...
>
> Therefore most of my enclosures are wired thus:
>
> ---incoming mains---double-pole breaker----CBUS Module----Channel1---
> MCB---Load
>
> Channel2--- MCB---Load
>
> Channel3--- MCB---Load
>
> Channel4--- MCB---Load
>
> Doing this allows you to fully isolate any individual load without=20
> affecting
> any others, which can be a boon, and it also allows you to fully=20
> isolate the
> entire enclosure for safety when you need to work inside the panel...
>
> If you really need dimmers on some lights in a room, then you=20
> invariably end
> up buying more "channels" than you initially need.. - don't
worry about
> that, they WILL come in useful later! - In a typical room in my house,
I
> usually ended needing "some" dimmer channels, and
"some" relay channels..=
.
> and it was rarely the case that I needed 4 of each... - I think in
one=20
> case
> I only needed 2 of each, but since there aren't any mixed units, I=20
> ended up
> having to buy a 4-ch dimmer, and a 4-ch relay, and initially only=20
> using half
> of them... If you can "make do" without dimmers (and
depending on what yo=
u
> need to drive, there might not be a choice...) then you may be able to
be
> more efficient with your utilisation of the channels, and thus=20
> optimise the
> modules you need to buy.. If cost is important, that can help a lot..
>
> Having said all that, I know there *are* individual non DIN units=20
> available,
> but I pretty much discounted them, as when I was purchasing, it worked
ou=
t
> quite a bit more expensive when calculated per-channel than using a=20
> 4-ch or
> 8-ch DIN module... - A rough example I seem to recall was that a
4-ch=20
> relay
> unit was somewhere in the region of =A3330, but the individual units
were
> about =A3150 each... - which works out to be quit a difference in=20
> per-channel
> cost... Also I believe there are no single channel dimmers... - so
my=20
> advice
> is definitely to stick to the DIN mount modules, either 4 or 8=20
> channel... -
> I believe the economics get better the more channels there are in
any=20
> given
> module...
>
> HTH
>
> Paul G
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ukha_d@xxxxxxx <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> [mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>]
On=20
> Behalf Of
> James Reed
> Sent: 24 May 2012 22:37
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Best approach to HA for lighting control
>
> Hi
>
> Thanks very much for this Paul, this is encouraging!
>
> I've had a look at some of the websites which sell C-bus kit but
I'm=20
> having
> a little difficulty in working out what's what. So if I wanted to
do=20
> as you
> suggest on a room-by-room basis, what sort of thing would I need? I
was
> thinking of either a dimmer or a switched relay for the lights. Would
it
> need to be a DIN based unit, and if so would this need to be mounted
away
> from the lights or is there some alternative?
>
> thanks
>
> James
>
> On 24/05/2012 8:41 PM, Paul Gordon wrote:
> >
> > James,
> >
> > The scenario you describe is exactly the same as mine....
> >
> > YES, you absolutely can install CBUS piecemeal... - you can start
off
> > with nothing more than a relay or dimmer module to control some
> > load(s), and a wall switch to control it, and a run of CAT5
between
> > them... that little would give you a functioning CBUS system -
> > notwithstanding a few caveats; you wouldn't have a friendly way
to
> > commission the units & do any programming, but they do have a
"learn"
> > mode for precisely this scenario.. - you would also have to
ensure
> > that the output unit you selected first (dimmer or relay module)
was
> > equipped with a CBUS power supply (not all are)....
> >
> > I would highly recommend the wired CBUS solution... it is 100%
rock
> > solid, well known, well supported, and likely to be around for a
while
> yet.
> > It can
> > be integrated with the CBUS wireless kit, - as well as a host of
other
> > 3rd party products such as Comfort...
> >
> > I would recommend that as you renovate each room, you install a
run of
> > proper CBUS pink CAT5 cable into every wallswitch backbox (that
pink
> > CAT5 cable is certified for use inside the same enclosure where
mains
> > is present, ordinary computer CAT5 cable is not). Take each run
from
> > each wallswitch back to either a single central location - if
possible
> > - since it is more convenient that way, - or if that's difficult,
at
> > least to as few points as possible. Note that CBUS does NOT
enforce
> > any rigid toplogy for its wired network... you can use bus or
star
> > topology, or indeed a completely random mix of the two...
> >
> > I have done all my own CBUS installation and programming
myself... - I
> > did go on an official Clipsal training course a few years ago,
but
> > honestly, if you are at least reasonably competent with wiring
> > electrics, it really isn't that difficult... and there's plenty
of
> > people on this list who have done the same (even one or two who
have
> > worked for the company!), so there's no shortage of help &
expertise
> > available here... - you definitely don't
> > *need*
> > to hire a specialist if you don't want to, - but do refer back to
my
> > point about how comfortable you are with your own level of
> > competence... - in my experience, I found that "general
electricians"
> > were pretty much hopeless...
> > most had never heard of or seen CBUS - or any similar such HA
system,
> > and were pretty much flummoxed by the wiring requirements for it
-
> > until I showed them!
> >
> > As I think you have realised, CBUS is a proper tried &
trusted system,
> > and you are paying a little more for the reliability... My
opinion is
> > that it is worth it for the peace of mind... my mantra these days
is
> > "to buy cheap is to buy twice"...
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > Paul G.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ukha_d@xxxxxxx <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:ukha_d@xxxxxxx <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:ukha_d%40yahoogroups.com>]
On
> > Behalf Of James Reed
> > Sent: 24 May 2012 19:14
> > To: Ukha_D@xxxxxxx <mailto:Ukha_D%40Yahoogroups.Com>=20
> <mailto:Ukha_D%40Yahoogroups.Com>
> > Subject: [ukha_d] Best approach to HA for lighting control
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I'm in the middle of buying a house, which is a largish
Victorian=20
> terrace.
> > It needs a lot of work but we are going to have to do it in
stages
> > because we can't afford a full scale renovation in one go - and
anyway
> > we have to live in it!
> >
> > I'd love to embed some HA really to do lighting control to begin
with
> > although I'd like to extend it to other things in due course.
I've got
> > some Homeeasy products at the moment, and although I found the
> > switched sockets good the lighting modules / dimmers have been
> > unreliable and I'm not really satisfied with it as a permanent /
long
> > term solution. Also I hear that lightwaverf has similar issues
and it
> > does not seem to be well supported either.
> >
> > I've looked at things like c-bus wireless which looks much better
but
> > is expensive. Ideally I would like to use a wired solution with
cat5
> > everywhere, and this may prove possible but it would have to be
done
> > room by room.
> >
> > If I was going to use c-bus could I do it on a piecemeal basis or
> > would it need to be done in one go? ALso do I need a specialist
> > installer or could it be done diy or with help from a general
> > electrician? Are there any other systems I should consider? I
don't
> > have much budget for this so would prefer to be cheaper if poss
but
> > I'm aware that you get what you pay for and I've not found HE
that
> > good even though it was cheap.
> >
> > I'd be grateful for any thoughts
> >
> > James
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>=20



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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