RE: Re: placing microphones...

["Nikola Kasic" <nikola@xxxxxxx>]

Yes, yes, read most of them, thanks.

Nik

-----Original Message-----
From: psghome2002 [mailto:psghome@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 15 July 2002 18:21
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxxSubject: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...

Steady on - I can only type so fast! :)

I hope I answered your question in my previous posts.

Did I give you the link to the Shure tech notes earlier? Have a look
at:

http://www.shure.com/support/technotes/app-ceiling.html

There's a load of good stuff on their site.

Paul.


--- In ukha_d@y..., "Nikola Kasic" <nikola@k...> wrote:
> Paul,
> You didn't give me any feedback on placing the microphones. I need
to know
> where to place them so I can put the cables at this point, at
least.
> Cheers,
> Nik
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: psghome2002 [mailto:psghome@h...]
>   Sent: 15 July 2002 17:41
>   To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx>   Subject: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...
>
>
>   I wouldn't dissagree with this - a close mic'd system will always
>   work better. BUT it's very cool when the 'open air' technology
does
>   work. It does need to be relatively quiet and the 'guest's kids'
>   point Amar makes is a good one! The guys at HAL recommend a local
>   attention-getting switch i.e. a switch that will turn on and hold
>   open the correct zone mic until you're finished. I plan to do
this
>   with the Shure mixer - A HV output to the logic port on the mixer
>   will easily do this.
>
>   --- In ukha_d@y..., "Amar Nagi" <amar@a...> wrote:
>   > Nikola,
>   >
>   > Can i just add something to this discussion.
>   > I too looked at a microphone solution to VR home automation,
and
>   after alot of
>   > research i decided not to. I went for a cordless phone solution
>   instead.
>   > It is just not reliable enough. One major point i hated was if
you
>   have guests
>   > round with kids they too can start speaking commands.
>   > I saw a few future homes and each one opted for the phone or
>   headset solution.
>   > Check out the orange.co.uk future home project.
>   >
>   > It can be really embrassing siting with guests trying to give
>   commands
>   > to your node0 and getting no response, whereas the phone
solution
>   > works i would say 95% of the time if not more.
>   >
>   > Food for thought..........
>   >
>   >
>   >       -----Original Message-----
>   >       From: Nikola Kasic [mailto:nikola@k...]
>   >       Sent: Mon 15/07/2002 16:57
>   >       To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx>   >       Cc:
>   >       Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...
>   >
>   >
>   >       Paul,
>   >       I am sitting in a sofa opposite the TV and I am faced
>   towards TV. Where should I mount my mic? If I mount mic on a wall
>   behind me it will be closer to me then to the TV but it will be
>   behind my back. If I place it behind TV, I'll be faced towards
mic,
>   but TV will be closer. So, which way to go?
>   >       My original plan is neither. I planned to put it above
the
>   doors of the lounge, so it would be at on the side, almost
equally
>   distanced from me and TV (slightly closer to TV). But distance
>   between me and mic and TV and mic will be about 4-5m, while
distance
>   between me and TV is about 3.5m.
>   >       Is that O.K?
>   >       I am reading all the theory, but I'm not smarter. All the
>   documents are for the environment when you know where speaker is
>   standing, so you use different kinds of mics to enhance reception
>   from speaker and attenuate the noise. Hence kardioid etc. mics.
>   >       However, in a flat I'll be moving and for moving speakers
>   they recommend using wireless mics which you wear, but you don't
>   want those either. So there's no proper solution. I'll asume that
>   I'll be in a sofa and try to adjust everything for that scenario.
>   All the rest is in god's hands.
>   >       Where did you buy your microphones from?
>   >
>   >       I just ordered mic cable. It would cost me about 44 quid,
>   because delivery is £8.
>   >       Spoke to Mark from West London Elec as you recommended.
>   >       They don't have web site yet (will in a month, he said)
and
>   their address is 9-11Acton High Road if anyone is interested.
>   >
>   >       You said that you did a lot of research before diving
into
>   this. What makes you think that recognition is not good because
of
>   software and not because of hardware or microphone placement?
>   >       Did you ever consider placing wireless microphones,
instead
>   of wired ones, so you can place more of them, at more appropriate
>   places?
>   >       Regarding noise cancellation, did you consider having one
>   mic very close to TV speaker and use that signal for
cancellation.
>   Maybe having wireless one and place it on top, or inside the TV
>   speaker, or inside TV?
>   >
>   >       Nik
>   >
>   >             -----Original Message-----
>   >             From: psghome2002 [mailto:psghome@h...]
>   >             Sent: 15 July 2002 13:21
>   >             To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx>   >             Subject: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...
>   >
>   >
>   >             I'm emailing several people with the same info at
>   the moment - maybe
>   >             I should put it all down on a web page (if I ever
>   get the time!).
>   >             See my comments below (rather long though):
>   >
>   >
>   >             > What do you use them for, at the moment?
>   >
>   >             Used for Voice Recognition - tried HAL2000 and
>   HomeVoice. Both got
>   >             serious limitations in the way I want to use it
>   though. I've been
>   >             talking to Dan Hoenhen (ACE) about him developing
an
>   ACE VR module
>   >             which could potentially be much more flexible than
>   HAL or HomeVoice.
>   >
>   >             Also will use as additional voice/noise tracking as
>   part of Comfort
>   >             alarm system - recording when alarm activated. Got
a
>   lot to do
>   >             before that though.
>   >
>   >             > Do you have one in each room, or maybe two in
>   larger rooms like
>   >             lounge?
>   >
>   >             only one in each room (well 7 so far). Although
some
>   of my rooms are
>   >             fairly large, one mic picks up voice OK (depending
>   on background
>   >             noise). Interesting listening to conversations -
not
>   that I'd do
>   >             that of course!
>   >
>   >             > Which cable did you use? Someone said that it's
>   very important to
>   >             put good
>   >             > quality microphone cable. Where did you buy it?
>   >
>   >             I agree - mic cable is very different to other
types
>   of cable. I
>   >             used an Adastra Z323 cable - 2 cores with overall
>   screen.
>   >             recommended for 'installed' sound applications. Got
>   it from  West
>   >             London Elec - Mark - 0208 9922155. £35.25 inc VAT
>   per 100m drum.
>   >
>   >
>   >             > And what's your longest run from mic to mixer?
>   >
>   >             About 20-30m I guess. Mic cable can run much longer
>   distances
>   >             though. I've used it on productions in excess of
60m
>   >
>   >             > I am sorry for so many questions, but there are
>   only few people
>   >             with
>   >             > microphones on this group, so you are very
>   valuable source of
>   >             information.
>   >             > It seems that the most important thing is placing
>   them.
>   >             > Where did you place yours?
>   >
>   >             On the wall at light switch height. Although the
>   guys at Shure are
>   >             very adamant about not ceiling mounting, I did try
>   taping a mic at
>   >             various points around the room and the difference
>   was normally quite
>   >             small. Best to site it towards where you will
speak.
>   I suggest you
>   >             try it like this before running cable.
>   >
>   >             > At the begining, I'll have my microphone in the
>   lounge only.
>   >             Therefore, I'll
>   >             > not use mixer yet (have to save money for it
>   first). That's where
>   >             it will be
>   >             > mostly used for giving commands for controlling
>   devices. My lounge
>   >             is
>   >             > 6.5mx3.8m. Sofa is opposite to the TV and that's
>   where, usually
>   >             I'll be
>   >             > giving commands from.
>   >             > But it's not simple for me to bring microphone
>   close to the sofa.
>   >             How did
>   >             > you place yours?
>   >             > How does it behave when TV is playing? Is it
>   capable of
>   >             distinguishing your
>   >             > voice from TV voice, or do you have to yell?
>   >
>   >             You need to set your expectations as to what to
>   expect >from >             air voice recognition'. The results will range from
>   good to very
>   >             poor (it's very frustrating when you have to repeat
>   yourself many
>   >             times!). VR technology (at least in open air) is
>   still limited. If
>   >             you've got a TV on (depending on volume) the
results
>   will vary a
>   >             lot. After all, how could the software distinguish
>   between someone
>   >             talking on the TV and your voice?
>   >
>   >             I've been thinking about noise cancelling
technology
>   to help with
>   >             this - maybe feeding the output of the TV/Stereo
>   into a circuit with
>   >             the mic signal and cancelling out the TV/Stereo
>   frequencies. I
>   >             suspect it'd be quite difficult though as the
signal
>   transmitted
>   >             >from 'clean' line-
>   >             out signal. Any thoughts anyone?
>   >
>   >             > You have that intelligent mixer and it detects
>   which microphones is
>   >             > receiving sound an makes it active. If TV or
music
>   is playing in
>   >             the lounge,
>   >             > will that lock the mixer to microphone in the
>   lounge, so it will
>   >             not listen
>   >             > in other rooms?
>   >
>   >             Yes it can lock it out. The mixer has input
>   balancing controls for
>   >             each input and an overall master control. You set
>   these controls
>   >             depending on the ambient levels in each room so
that
>   it switches
>   >             correctly. This of course doesn't account for when
>   someone switches
>   >             on loud TV or music in the kitchen and you're
trying
>   to talk to your
>   >             PC in the lounge. That's why I went for the Shure
>   mixer with it's
>   >             logic control - using outputs from HV or other HA
>   hardware, you can
>   >             manually select which mic to 'lock on' (or you
could
>   wire up a very
>   >             simple override switch - uses 5V logic). You can
>   also detect which
>   >             mic is active - which I will use to eventually feed
>   back PC voice to
>   >             only the room giving commands.
>   >
>   >             I went for all this as I'm interested in the
>   technology. I think it
>   >             still has a long way to go to get to the 'Startrek
>   Voyager' stage!
>   >
>   >             > Cheers,
>   >             > Nik
>   >             >
>   >             >
>   >             >   -----Original Message-----
>   >             >   From: psghome2002 [mailto:psghome@h...]
>   >             >   Sent: 13 July 2002 19:12
>   >             >   To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx>   >             >   Subject: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...
>   >             >
>   >             >
>   >             >   Round 2...
>   >             >
>   >             >   I also put in mics in most rooms for voice
>   recognition. I did a
>   >             LOT
>   >             >   of research and eventually put in Crown PZM11
>   wall mics. They're
>   >             >   fairly inobtrusive and based on the US 'J Box'
>   size format (you
>   >             can
>   >             >   use a J Box or just cut a hole in the wall and
>   use rawl plugs for
>   >             >   the screw fixing - I did both).
>   >             >
>   >             >   The mic quality is great - it's a pressure zone
>   mic and designed
>   >             to
>   >             >   pick up voice frequencies (has a bit of bass
>   roll-off to cut HVAC
>   >             >   noises etc). I fed these via standard mic cable
>   (very important
>   >             to
>   >             >   use good quality cable) which is screened
>   (doesn't cost a great
>   >             deal
>   >             >   either) into a Shure SCM810 intelligent mixer.
>   This mixer
>   >             supplies
>   >             >   +48V phantom power to the mics. It
automatically
>   senses which mic
>   >             >   has the loudest input and switches to that
>   source. Also has a
>   >             logic
>   >             >   input so you can do some clever stuff linked to
>   HomeVision etc.
>   >             >
>   >             >   Shure web site (www.shure.com)
>   >             >   Crown web site (www.crownaudio.com)
>   >             >
>   >             >   Shure has a good document on why you SHOULD NOT
>   place mics on the
>   >             >   ceiling:
>   >             >
>   >             >   http://www.shure.com/support/technotes/app-
>   ceiling.html
>   >             >
>   >             >   Mics will pick up all noise in the room, so
>   depends on what you
>   >             want
>   >             >   to do with it.
>   >             >
>   >             >   I'm planning to try and create a whole-house
>   hands-free telephone
>   >             >   system. Don't know how successful it'll be
>   though.
>   >             >
>   >             >   I put a couple of pics on the Yahoo group
Photos
>   area - mic and
>   >             >   keypad for audio system - Under subject 'Pauls
>   mics'
>   >             >
>   >             >   Let me know if you want more info.
>   >             >
>   >             >   Paul.
>   >             >
>   >             >
>   >             >
>   >             >   --- In ukha_d@y..., "Nikola Kasic"
<nikola@k...>
>   wrote:
>   >             >   > Along with speakers, I plan to put
microphones
>   in each room as
>   >             >   well.
>   >             >   > My main question is: what kind of cable I
>   should put in and
>   >             what's
>   >             >   the
>   >             >   > longest run I can use before degrading
signal?
>   >             >   > Also, where should I place microphones,
>   relative to the
>   >             speakers,
>   >             >   in order
>   >             >   > to avoid feedback and echoing?
>   >             >   > If speaker is close to the microphone and
>   music is coming out
>   >             of
>   >             >   it, will I
>   >             >   > have to yell in order to be heard by
>   microphone?
>   >             >   > I know that there are very few people with
>   installed
>   >             microphones
>   >             >   in this
>   >             >   > group. Can they come forward and tell me
>   what's their
>   >             experience,
>   >             >   which
>   >             >   > cables they used and where did they place
>   microphones.
>   >             >   > Cheers,
>   >             >   > Nik
>   >             >
>   >             >
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