Re: Structured (low voltage) wiring installation estimates

["Dandelion Acres" <nospam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hey Lewis, if you decide to move to the northwest look me up and I'll give
you a job.

Nobody actually answered this guys question, on costs. I'll give you an idea
here, just a ball-park. Keep in mind I'm not a "do-it-yourselfer", but a
business destined for profit and growth. It's working for us....

A pair of speakers with volume control location in a room (16-4 w/Cat5) RI
only $195 per room. Includes ring if appropriate. Trim separate of course.

Regardless of the content of a drop, and yes we use that same term, we price
it *per cable*. An Ultrahome bundle of 2 RG6 and 2 Cat5 is four cables. $45
each cable includes rough-in and trim.

Head end equipment is separate, and things like Cat6 or a mini-coax feed (5
coax w/2 STP) to a display are more due to raw material costs.

I guess his project with 11 rooms of speakers and the rest will run around
$7000-8000. Add speakers, VC's and/or keypads, terminal equipment and this
may be a $15-20K job. I'll do these all day long if I can find them...

"Lewis Gardner" <lgardner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:423149ec_1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Before I get started let me clarify a term I use.
>
> A "drop" is a location where wire(s) terminate outside the wire closet. To
> me it makes NO difference if there is one wire or ten cables going to a
> box, the time required is about the same so I figure labor by the box
> (drop). It looks like the OP did the same since he has "15 component (3
> RG6) drops" which I count as 15 not 5 or 45 drops. Additionally the OP
> said "29 speaker drops". I don't think he is running mono so 29 (being an
> odd number) would mean 29 stereo pairs.
>
> Any contractor that charges you a flat price per cable for HA work is not
> dealing in reality. The big cost is labor, not materials.
>
>
>>>90 drops X 20 minutes per drop = 30 hours
>>
>>
>> 30 hours / 2 people / 2 days is 7.5 hours per day -- not so bad.  I
>> figure more like 30 minutes per drop for first timers.  That's 10-1/2
>> hours a day -- still not so bad.
>
> 20 minutes per drop is with two people. Adding an extra person does not
> cut the time in half. The only way to cut the time in half is to have two
> crews (4 people) pulling wire at the same time. This requires quite a bit
> of coordination and is beyond the "You and a helper (perhaps your SO)"
> like you proposed to the OP.
>
> How do you get 10.5 hours? 90 drops X 30 minutes per drop = 45 hours (
> which is more reasonable for DIY). Over two days that is 22.5 hours per
> day. Even divided by 2 (which would be 4 people) that is still 11.25 hours
> per day.
>
> My original (and unchanged) point is that even at the "professional" speed
> of 20 minutes per drop this project would be quite an undertaking for a
> two day weekend.
>
>
>>>1. Locate and mount a box or mud ring (for speakers 3 wire end points).
>>
>>
>> 3 speakers are three drops.  No one I know uses mud rings for in-wall or
>> in-ceiling speakers.  Pre-wire brackets, if they're being used, go up in
>> 2 minutes flat.  Piece of cake.
>
> I use metal backboxes (Speakercraft) for speakers. No big deal in time or
> cost since the finish is faster, easier, the sound is better and the fire
> rating is maintained. My only point was that for speaker wiring you have
> to get the cables to three places which adds about 10 minutes per stereo
> pair.
>
>
>>>2. Drill holes. At this speed spade bits and consumer
>>>drills won't cut it. You need auger or self-feed bits, a
>>>stout drill and heavy duty extension cord.
>>
>>
>> Each to his own I guess.  For many years I ran a modestly successful
>> installing dealership.  Ever since they became available I used 18-Volt
>> battery powered Milwaukee drills and ordinary jobber's bits -- available
>> at CoastalTool.com for pretty decent prices but also at Home Depot for a
>> few percent more.
>
> 18 volt drills will run a 3/4" NailEater (auger bit) all day long with two
> batteries. You still need AC drill for the trunk line holes through
> joists, top plates, bottom plates and subfloor which can be up to 3" in
> diameter and 3.75" deep. No battery drill or 3/8" consumer drill can
> handle that.
>
>
>>>3. Pull and label cables.
>>
>>
>> Unless the home is exceptionally large, pulling cables is simple and
>> easy. I use a Sharpie brand fine point laundry marker to label both ends
>> of every cable.  Labels, tags and such often come off during
>> construction.  Sharpie will be there until Jesus comes back.
>
> If you have your planning done each box will have some sort of name.
> Gather the cables going to that box and tape them together with light
> colored electrical tape (white or yellow scotch 33 is the best). Pull the
> cable bundle to the box. Get the enough slack on the wire closet end and
> tape the bundle again, label the bundle and cut. When you get ready to
> finish the wire closet cut the cables out of the bundle one at a time,
> terminate and mark your terminations. Saves LOTS of time on jobs with
> hundreds of cables.
>
> A home that will hold 29 pairs of speakers is likely "exceptionally
> large".
>
>
>>>4. Fasten cable bundles so the won't be damaged by other trades.
>>
>>
>> That's part of pulling and it's extremely quick and easy if you use drive
>> rings.
>
> My point is that it takes time.
>
> Drive rings work fine for alarm wiring and cat3 phone stuff but are not
> appropriate for cat5 (or above) or RG6. In horizontal runs the narrow
> contact point at the bottom will deform the cable over time possibly
> resulting in degraded performance. Also to insert cables in a installed
> drive ring a significant amount of twisting is required. If a installer is
> not careful cables (especially coaxial) can be damaged.
>
> I prefer driving a 1/2" NM staple in line with the cable bundle and
> attaching the bundle with cable ties (2 or 3 on horizontal runs) or velcro
> straps. You don't want the cables to deform over time. I have seen RG6
> degrade after installation to where it would not support a satellite
> signal.
>
>
>>>Not included in the above 30 hours is time to
>>>set up and get out twice since you can't do all
>>>the work in one day...
>>
>>
>> It takes all of ten minutes to exit one's SUV or pickup, grab a drill,
>> hammer bits and drive rings and a few boxes of cable.
>>
>>
>>>Getting all the cable and tools in and out will eat
>>>up at least 1 hour per day...
>>
>>
>> You're starting to sound like a paid installer.  It just doesn't take
>> that long to unload cables and the very few tools needed to pull wire.
>
> I am a paid installer that does top notch work and I am quite fast. The
> OPs drop list would result in a minimum of 120 cables. At 90' per run that
> is 10800' of cable. That is at least 11 boxes. Everything takes time and
> time goes by quickly when you are on deadline. I don't think 30 minutes
> for set up and 30 minutes for tear down are unreasonable so 1 hour per day
> is a good estimate.
>
>
>>>So you are looking at two 16 hour days...
>>
>>
>> Maybe someone peing paid on the clock might take that long.  If one of my
>> guys took an hour to unload his truck I'd fire him before coffee break.
>
> I never said it was going to take an hour to unload the truck. The TOTAL
> time alloted for set up and tear down is 1 hour per day. A guy has to pee
> sometime and at 20 minutes per drop you don't have time for much besides
> wire work. One hour per day is fairly stingy. With "real" workmen you have
> 30 min for lunch and two 15 min breaks. A homeowner with drywallers on the
> way has a bit more motivation.
>
>
>>>My guess is that few DIYs are able to pull off such a feat...
>>
>>
>> Perhaps that's because you're guessing.  I cater to DIYers and I help
>> them plan jobs all the time.  It's not as tough as you might think it is.
>
> No I'm not guessing. I have wired a bunch houses and I keep decent
> records. Unless you are Superman or Joe Fumblefingers it is going to take
> you around 20 to 30 minutes per drop to do HA type prewires (new
> construction, 1 to 6 cables per drop).
>
>
>>>I just reviewed a actual time spreadsheet from a job where everything
>>>went well. There were 55 drops which took 18 hours - 19.6 minutes per
>>>drop. This was with a crew of three.
>>
>>
>> Fire your crew.  I'll get you some guys who like to work and save you a
>> fortune on wasted labor.
>
> I would like to see a crew that could do the job faster. That job had 130
> cables which worked out to around 20,000 feet of cable. The cost on the
> wire alone was $2428.50. My estimate was was within 1% of the actual cost
> for the prewire. All of this AND part of the basement was a crawlspace due
> to rock.
>
>
>>>In construction with open wood trusses the only drilling is to penetrate
>>>floors. In one of these I used three cable joes (but no helper) and I ran
>>>21 drops in 10 hours which is 28.6 minutes per drop. Not bad...
>>
>>
>> Not bad???  I'd call that terrible.
>
> I would like to see you do better. That job had 70 cables (6,000 feet). If
> you want to say each cable is a drop then that is 9 minutes per.
>
>
>> with cables marked at both ends two people can do the
>> punch down simultaneously once the home is finished.
>
> One guy in the wiring closet and one guy at the wall jacks. The only one
> that has a bunch of cables to sort is the guy in the closet. The guy doing
> the wall jacks hooks the white RG6 to the white jack. the black RG6 to the
> black jack, the grey catX to the gray jack and the white catX to the white
> jack. Not hard.
>
> Labeling each wire with a sharpie is time consuming and can be covered if
> they spray paint which is very common for walls these days. It also only
> works on light colored wires. Whatever, my system works for me and your
> system worked for you when you were installing alarms.
>
>
> A diversity of viewpoints is what makes this forum fun. I don't think we
> are really that different in our time estimations. You say "30 minutes per
> drop for first timers" I say 20 to 30 minutes for normal people. I can't
> imagine that you actually think adding an hour per day for miscellaneous
> tasks is excessive.
>
> I think where we vary is that you are selling something and have minimized
> the effort on what looks like a fairly large job. Anyone installing 29
> stereo speaker pairs is doing a fairly large job. The speakers alone using
> your "30 minutes per drop for first timers" are going to run almost 15
> hours (2 normal 8 hour workdays).
>
> Peace...