Re: Structured (low voltage) wiring installation estimates

[Lewis Gardner <lgardner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Before I get started let me clarify a term I use.

A "drop" is a location where wire(s) terminate outside the wire closet.
To me it makes NO difference if there is one wire or ten cables going to
a box, the time required is about the same so I figure labor by the box
(drop). It looks like the OP did the same since he has "15 component (3
RG6) drops" which I count as 15 not 5 or 45 drops. Additionally the OP
said "29 speaker drops". I don't think he is running mono so 29 (being
an odd number) would mean 29 stereo pairs.

Any contractor that charges you a flat price per cable for HA work is
not dealing in reality. The big cost is labor, not materials.


>>90 drops X 20 minutes per drop = 30 hours
>
>
> 30 hours / 2 people / 2 days is 7.5 hours per day -- not so bad.  I figure
> more like 30 minutes per drop for first timers.  That's 10-1/2 hours a
> day -- still not so bad.

20 minutes per drop is with two people. Adding an extra person does not
cut the time in half. The only way to cut the time in half is to have
two crews (4 people) pulling wire at the same time. This requires quite
a bit of coordination and is beyond the "You and a helper (perhaps your
SO)" like you proposed to the OP.

How do you get 10.5 hours? 90 drops X 30 minutes per drop = 45 hours (
which is more reasonable for DIY). Over two days that is 22.5 hours per
day. Even divided by 2 (which would be 4 people) that is still 11.25
hours per day.

My original (and unchanged) point is that even at the "professional"
speed of 20 minutes per drop this project would be quite an undertaking
for a two day weekend.


>>1. Locate and mount a box or mud ring (for speakers 3 wire end points).
>
>
> 3 speakers are three drops.  No one I know uses mud rings for in-wall or
> in-ceiling speakers.  Pre-wire brackets, if they're being used, go up in 2
> minutes flat.  Piece of cake.

I use metal backboxes (Speakercraft) for speakers. No big deal in time
or cost since the finish is faster, easier, the sound is better and the
fire rating is maintained. My only point was that for speaker wiring you
have to get the cables to three places which adds about 10 minutes per
stereo pair.


>>2. Drill holes. At this speed spade bits and consumer
>>drills won't cut it. You need auger or self-feed bits, a
>>stout drill and heavy duty extension cord.
>
>
> Each to his own I guess.  For many years I ran a modestly successful
> installing dealership.  Ever since they became available I used 18-Volt
> battery powered Milwaukee drills and ordinary jobber's bits -- available at
> CoastalTool.com for pretty decent prices but also at Home Depot for a few
> percent more.

18 volt drills will run a 3/4" NailEater (auger bit) all day long with
two batteries. You still need AC drill for the trunk line holes through
joists, top plates, bottom plates and subfloor which can be up to 3" in
diameter and 3.75" deep. No battery drill or 3/8" consumer drill can
handle that.


>>3. Pull and label cables.
>
>
> Unless the home is exceptionally large, pulling cables is simple and easy.
> I use a Sharpie brand fine point laundry marker to label both ends of every
> cable.  Labels, tags and such often come off during construction.  Sharpie
> will be there until Jesus comes back.

If you have your planning done each box will have some sort of name.
Gather the cables going to that box and tape them together with light
colored electrical tape (white or yellow scotch 33 is the best). Pull
the cable bundle to the box. Get the enough slack on the wire closet end
and tape the bundle again, label the bundle and cut. When you get ready
to finish the wire closet cut the cables out of the bundle one at a
time, terminate and mark your terminations. Saves LOTS of time on jobs
with hundreds of cables.

A home that will hold 29 pairs of speakers is likely "exceptionally large".


>>4. Fasten cable bundles so the won't be damaged by other trades.
>
>
> That's part of pulling and it's extremely quick and easy if you use drive
> rings.

My point is that it takes time.

Drive rings work fine for alarm wiring and cat3 phone stuff but are not
appropriate for cat5 (or above) or RG6. In horizontal runs the narrow
contact point at the bottom will deform the cable over time possibly
resulting in degraded performance. Also to insert cables in a installed
drive ring a significant amount of twisting is required. If a installer
is not careful cables (especially coaxial) can be damaged.

I prefer driving a 1/2" NM staple in line with the cable bundle and
attaching the bundle with cable ties (2 or 3 on horizontal runs) or
velcro straps. You don't want the cables to deform over time. I have
seen RG6 degrade after installation to where it would not support a
satellite signal.


>>Not included in the above 30 hours is time to
>>set up and get out twice since you can't do all
>>the work in one day...
>
>
> It takes all of ten minutes to exit one's SUV or pickup, grab a drill,
> hammer bits and drive rings and a few boxes of cable.
>
>
>>Getting all the cable and tools in and out will eat
>>up at least 1 hour per day...
>
>
> You're starting to sound like a paid installer.  It just doesn't take that
> long to unload cables and the very few tools needed to pull wire.

I am a paid installer that does top notch work and I am quite fast. The
OPs drop list would result in a minimum of 120 cables. At 90' per run
that is 10800' of cable. That is at least 11 boxes. Everything takes
time and time goes by quickly when you are on deadline. I don't think 30
minutes for set up and 30 minutes for tear down are unreasonable so 1
hour per day is a good estimate.


>>So you are looking at two 16 hour days...
>
>
> Maybe someone peing paid on the clock might take that long.  If one of my
> guys took an hour to unload his truck I'd fire him before coffee break.

I never said it was going to take an hour to unload the truck. The TOTAL
time alloted for set up and tear down is 1 hour per day. A guy has to
pee sometime and at 20 minutes per drop you don't have time for much
besides wire work. One hour per day is fairly stingy. With "real"
workmen you have 30 min for lunch and two 15 min breaks. A homeowner
with drywallers on the way has a bit more motivation.


>>My guess is that few DIYs are able to pull off such a feat...
>
>
> Perhaps that's because you're guessing.  I cater to DIYers and I help them
> plan jobs all the time.  It's not as tough as you might think it is.

No I'm not guessing. I have wired a bunch houses and I keep decent
records. Unless you are Superman or Joe Fumblefingers it is going to
take you around 20 to 30 minutes per drop to do HA type prewires (new
construction, 1 to 6 cables per drop).


>>I just reviewed a actual time spreadsheet from a job where everything went
>>well. There were 55 drops which took 18 hours - 19.6 minutes per drop.
>>This was with a crew of three.
>
>
> Fire your crew.  I'll get you some guys who like to work and save you a
> fortune on wasted labor.

I would like to see a crew that could do the job faster. That job had
130 cables which worked out to around 20,000 feet of cable. The cost on
the wire alone was $2428.50. My estimate was was within 1% of the actual
cost for the prewire. All of this AND part of the basement was a
crawlspace due to rock.


>>In construction with open wood trusses the only drilling is to penetrate
>>floors. In one of these I used three cable joes (but no helper) and I ran
>>21 drops in 10 hours which is 28.6 minutes per drop. Not bad...
>
>
> Not bad???  I'd call that terrible.

I would like to see you do better. That job had 70 cables (6,000 feet).
If you want to say each cable is a drop then that is 9 minutes per.


> with cables marked at both ends two people can do the
> punch down simultaneously once the home is finished.

One guy in the wiring closet and one guy at the wall jacks. The only one
that has a bunch of cables to sort is the guy in the closet. The guy
doing the wall jacks hooks the white RG6 to the white jack. the black
RG6 to the black jack, the grey catX to the gray jack and the white catX
to the white jack. Not hard.

Labeling each wire with a sharpie is time consuming and can be covered
if they spray paint which is very common for walls these days. It also
only works on light colored wires. Whatever, my system works for me and
your system worked for you when you were installing alarms.


A diversity of viewpoints is what makes this forum fun. I don't think we
are really that different in our time estimations. You say "30 minutes
per drop for first timers" I say 20 to 30 minutes for normal people. I
can't imagine that you actually think adding an hour per day for
miscellaneous tasks is excessive.

I think where we vary is that you are selling something and have
minimized the effort on what looks like a fairly large job. Anyone
installing 29 stereo speaker pairs is doing a fairly large job. The
speakers alone using your "30 minutes per drop for first timers" are
going to run almost 15 hours (2 normal 8 hour workdays).

Peace...