Re: The problems with X10 ...

["accidental plumber" <aplayerinla@xxxxxxxxx>]

Dave Houston wrote:
> I think you really have a lot to learn and could have saved yourself a lot
> of trouble by asking questions in comp.home.automation where there are a =
lot
> of people quite skilled in things X-10.

Come on, who's everybody at 1999?  I called the x10 technical support
and he said my house has noise and stopped me from saying anything
more.  I gave up usenet in the early 90's and went into the WWW.  I
would not have posted here if not for Google revived the usenet groups
because they do not have enough takers for their own Google group.  And
that the Google search engine is very good for Google groups (and
Usenet groups).  So good that I think I helped numerous people
unclogging their drains last month with little work.

>
> First, even though the price has recently gone up to about $65, an ELK ES=
M1
> X-10 Signal Strength meter is an invaluable troubleshooting aid. It can a=
lso
> show the presence/absence of Insteon signals.
>
> The inexpensive X-10 Sundowner can be used to detect dawn and dusk.
>
> Some TVs need filters - some do not. The ESM1 will tell you whether yours
> does or doesn't.

If you search around for info, this is precisely what you get, over the
top as I already stated.  Basically you are telling people on a budget,
who won't change a light switch, not to get into X10 and carrier line.

I'm telling people the opposite.  If you just want the house to look
occupied, or seniors who wanted to reduce the need of getting in and
out of bed to turn on and off the lights, X10 is a decent choice on a
budget.

And that you don't need to throw a lot of unnecessary money and time
for nothing.  And you don't need to do trouble shooting.  I already
done the work for you.  If you follow my 1,2, 3's.

Come on, typical, it's not just the signal meter, you need the
transmitter as well.  Buying all that, more expensive than most kits,
to decide whether you need a $10 blocker ?!  Is that over the top or
what?

>From my simple instructions, you can easily decide if X10 is for you
with only a starter kit.

>
> "X-10 security" is an oxymoron. I can disarm any X-10 security console in
> less than 30 seconds from outside the residence without physically touchi=
ng
> anything.

That is typical of wireless security systems, but you forget that I
have perimeter defense and double or triple protection for cheap.

It's useful if you can tell us how easy it is to jam or disable the x10
system.  So we can see how difficult it is to guard against it.  As I
have said, probably I would open my doors for civilized thieves armed
with a jammer, and then call the insurance company afterward.  Those
armed with stones are the problems.

My high power welcome lanterns from Lowes has PIR detection range of at
least 300 ft.  I have to adjust the sensitivity down to 50.  Then the
wall of overlapping cheap eagle eye PIR's which has about the same
range.  I have to point them at the ground to avoid reflections from
afar.  Then I have at least 4 cameras mounted at not so visible places.
 They are at 2.4 GHz and 1.2 GHz, all at line of sight to my receiver
at 10 ft away.  I don't know too much about jamming but to jam the
xcam's, you need to have the power of a magnetron as in your microwave,
and put it near to the line of sight or the receiver.

I was going to buy more consoles if I find some cheap things on eBay.
I'm sure they will work together as the x10 detectors only transmit.
If I put consoles at the two ends of the house, it should guard against
portable low power jammers.

Now you have 3 frequencies to jam.  2.4 G, 1.2 G which is illegal I
think, and the x10 frequency, which is neither of the above.

After all that, I still have decent locks on the doors, and the 3
dollar independent alarms on most windows.

>
> There's nothing "strange" about the current rating of the D-Link power
> supply. It's a switchmode supply. It only supplies what the equipment nee=
ds
> and wastes very little power when idle. Given that California, Europe and
> other regions have mandated efficiency standards that can only be met by
> such supplies, everyone is likely to start seeing switchmode supplies with
> all new equipment. Some may pose problems for X-10 but I have a lot of
> D-Link gear (router, WAP, network HDD and had a wireless router until I
> upgraded from 802.11B) with these supplies, none of which causes any trou=
ble
> for my X-10 & Insteon. I've also tested the switchmode supplies sold by
> Circuit Specialists and found them X-10 and Insteon friendly.

Only electricians will take notice of switchmode supplies as if it is
special.  Most people have a big switchmode supply in their PC since
the 80's !!!  From 100W to 300W and now 500W.  The technology isn't the
problem, bad design is.

The strange thing is that I'm not attaching a chainsaw to my cable
modem, but a wi-fi router.  2.5 A?!  No way.  Throw the router away.
Now it works happily on a 500 mA DC adaptor, though I'm not using all
the 4 Ethernet ports.  My life depends on the router, as I have
internet phone.  E911 depends on the router to work.  Of course I have
several cell phones as back up and most if not all old cell phones can
use emergency services.

I'm telling you, with my now expert insight, that one moron can wire a
socket uniquely and hence screw up the whole house.  And one bad D-link
DC adapter can kill the x10 signal stone dead.  Forget about your
signal meter, each electronic box attenuate the x10 signal a bit, that
your LED blinking meter cannot measure.  And they add up.  So it's
worthwhile to use a blocker to isolate the TV cluster and maybe the PC
cluster, so the signal is not attenuated and increase the reliability.
If your signal is weak, you will have all sorts of noise problems.

>
> Transceivers on the same phase are _NEVER_ a problem. TM751 transceivers =
on
> opposite phases (or legs) will _ALWAYS_ cause powerline collisions on unit
> codes 1 & 9. Use RR501s which have collision avoidance (but at the cost of
> duplicated commands) or use the Leviton HPCRF transceiver which handles a=
ll
> housecodes and also has collision avoidance.

That's probably right, but who cares.  I'm saying that the RF range
(and the wired range) is normally decent for a 2000 sqft house and 5000
sqft yard.  If you feel that you have a short range, it could be that
you have two transceivers on the same house code.  On different house
codes are OK, I have been using it for years to overcome a moron socket
wiring.

>
> That you experience no problems from the AC and other motors, fluorescent=
s,
> etc. is the luck of the draw. Others may have problems - it depends on how
> noisy the equipment is and on what X-10 gear is in use. Many X-10 switches
> and modules are prone to brownouts and to noise spikes which can be caused
> by motors, fluorescents, etc. This is documented on X-10's website.

Is the x10 info ever useful?  Like the D-link adapter, one bad design
can screw up all.  But basically I'm saying that ordinary household
appliances are OK statistically, much tamer than electronics.  For
noise to turn on or off a light by itself is statistically unlikely
event, unless you are constantly bombarded by strong noises, or the X10
physical and protocol design is really stupid.  If you keep your signal
strong by blocking the electronics, noise is much less of a problem.

My news are good news as what can you do about a noisy blower?  Washing
machine?  Throw them away and get a new one?  Plug them in a 30A
blocker each?  Worry about your electronic clusters first.

Brownouts are the exceptions.  If that bothers you, forget about X10
and dave's website.

>
> 3-phase power to a single family residence is quite rare in the USA (and
> 3-phase appliances rarer still). I doubt very much that you have 3-phase
> power. More likely you have one 240V phase split into two 120V phases (or
> legs), 180=B0 out of phase with each other, which the electricians among =
us
> call "split-phase". Again, whether or not a phase coupler is needed depen=
ds
> on specifics.

May be rare in Houston, but at least as far as my eyes can see, all the
fake Spanish Californian architectures all have the same design (15
years old?).  One special 3 phase socket in the utility room for the
dryer and washer.  But my washer don't need it and I use gas for my
dryer.  As my house isn't that big, having one columns of breakers in
the distribution box rather than two columns, I think all the lights
and sockets of interest are on the same phase.

>
> I have covered nearly each of these issues, as succinctly as I can, on my
> web page...
>
>      http://davehouston.net

But you turn people off at the 1st page, I'm not looking at soldering
anything.  And now people all over the world can Google me for x10, not
you.

>
> You should stick to plumbing. ;)

Did you failed to get into RF IC design, or at least analog IC design?

>
> "accidental plumber" <aplayerinla@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> >X10 troubleshooting, or it should actually be X10 essentials.
> >
> >If you get an X10 kit and try it out, most likely it would work
> >beautifully.  But if you expand to any non-trivial system around the
> >whole house, I can guarantee that it would not work reliably.  The
> >troubleshooting from X10 are well hidden or very distorted.  A few
> >years ago it's difficult to find any info in the net though the
> >technology is from the 70's.  Now there are two much troubleshooting
> >info over the top, without perspective.  Mostly likely something simple
> >will make you system work reliably.
> >
> >1. Check your wiring if you are not in a new house.  It just take one
> >moron in the past 10 years before I took over the house to wire a wrong
> >socket and disabled half the house from X10 control.  The socket is
> >well hidden, never used, but it will work as the neutral is wired into
> >the ground.  A few dollars for a 3 pin tester will get the sockets
> >tested pretty quick.
> >
> >2.  You need at least one 5A "noise" blocker and two will be good for
> >most people.  One for your TV and all the home theater gadgets around
> >it.  Other for the computer and the gadgets around it.  The devil are
> >electronics especially higher power ones.
> >
> >All electronics need to reject power line noise and fluctuations.
> >Basically they all attenuate the X10 signals, which is noise to the
> >power signal.  The higher the power, the more difficult the job is,
> >while the easiest way to do it is to use a by pass capacitor.
> >
> >The TV alone doesn't cause any obvious trouble but the load of all the
> >boxes add up.  The lights near the TV and home theater cannot be
> >switched on half of the time.
> >
> >Since usually you have a single extension where all your devices are
> >plugged on, you just need to plug in the blocker to the wall socket
> >first, and then plug in the extension plug over it.  But check if 5A is
> >enough for all your devices.  If not, either buy a higher amp one or
> >plug  some of the lower power devices directly into the electrical
> >sockets.  A blocker is basically an inductor in serious so the whole
> >extension are isolated from the rest of the house electrical circuit
> >via a high impedance.
> >
> >The other cluster a home may have is a computer.  My 400W switching
> >supply is OK.  On the same extension, I have cable modem, wi-fi router,
> >scanner, printer, and many more because I needed two extensions with
> >between 15 to 20 sockets.
> >
> >The devil is the D-Link wi-fi router.  Strangely it has a DC adapter
> >rated at 2.5 Amp !!  It alone will kill off any X10 action in the same
> >electrical circuit.  I replaced it with a 500 mA and it still works
> >reliably as a wi-fi router.  Once it's sorted out, I don't even need a
> >blocker for the lights to work reliably.  But since these things add
> >up, I suggest to add another blocker here.
> >
> >The moral is, if you plug in a crap battery charger somewhere in your
> >house, your whole system could be compromised.
> >
> >3.  If your house has 3-phase 240V circuit split into two separate 120V
> >circuits, x10 doesn't work across the two circuits.  I have 3-phase and
> >I thought I had the same problem.  But after I found out what a moron
> >had done, now I can control every socket and light in my house, a
> >typical 3-bed Cali house.  Anyway, the problem is easily detected and
> >the solution is simple.  There's a adapter plug type of thing to couple
> >the two phases.  You can still plug in your 3-phase appliance over it.
> >
> >One even cheaper way is to add another transceiver on the other circuit
> >that come to you bundled and almost free, that you never needed.
> >
> >4.  Noise and interference from outside of your house.  I don't think
> >the problem is that common.  x10 house codes are supposed to solve the
> >interference problem.  Unless your neighbor has something strange in
> >their house, the outside noise is similar to the inside noise you
> >generated in your own home.  I would invest in a pair of testers before
> >committing to find a qualified electrician to do the job according to
> >Cali code.
> >
> >5.  Noises - overrated.  The big blower of the central system, no
> >problem.  Washing machine and drying machine, no problem for x10, even
> >though the wi-fi performance suffers.  Ceiling fans, washing machine
> >and fluorescent lights, all no problem.  But the truth is, they are
> >never turned on all at the same time.  Very unlike the electronics.
> >
> >6. RF range.  I never have any problem with the range.  The exception
> >is when the security console is in the install mode, the range is much
> >shorter probably due to old age of the device.  I make sure that the
> >backup battery is charged and bring the console near to the detectors
> >one by one to "install" them.
> >
> >Another exception is when there are two transceivers on the same phase,
> >listening to the same house code.  The range appeared to be very short,
> >but the cause of unreliability is probably the collision of x10 power
> >line signals.
>
>
> http://davehouston.net
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/roZetta/
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