ASA re-visited

["Jim" <alarminex@xxxxxxx>]

Sylvain Robitaille wrote:
> Jim wrote:

Well this is the third time I've tried to post this, without success.
Sorry for the delay in response.
>
> > All I can say .....no.... wait..... all I WILL say .... is that YOU
> > should take the time to go back in THIS groups archives before you make
> > any suggestions at ALL about how to cure the ills of this group.
>
> Done.
>
I don't think you'll have the time nor be able to actually get the
"feel" of
what's happened here over 6 years, but you're certainly welcome to try.


> > YOU have no idea what an insidious, malicious SOB Bass is. All of the
> > ignoring in the world is not going to stop this nasty, spiteful, and
> > vindictive degenerate.
>
> Perhaps, but do you really feel any better now, having called him these
> things?

That wasn't any attempt to degrade him or call him names.
I was simply trying to describe what kind of a person he is.


>
> > You will please note, that ignoring most of the items in this list
> > simply empowers him to accomplish his goal of exploiting this Newsgroup
> > for his own personal gain.
>
> I disagree, though I also don't believe you've given the approach a fair
> chance.

Well, I can understand that you wouldn't know that for about a year,
when
I first came to the group, I really tried to lay back and let him do
his dirty
deeds. In spite of the fact that people from groups that he'd
previously
disrupted had "found" him in ASA and constantly posted what he'd done
to people in other groups, and in spite of what I saw him doing to
others
here. But, at every turn, there was always the arrogant attitude. He
was
right, everybody else was wrong. He'd dishonor installers, belittle
anyone who disagreed with him. Constantly direct end users to his
web site to buy from him and just plain acted belligerent and nasty to
anyone who opposed him. He was going to do what ever he wanted to
do regardless of what anyone else thought was right or not. Even so far
as telling Steve Rykman the founder of the group that he didn't have
any
say in interpreting the FAQ with regard to selling in ASA.
>
> > His mantra is, "this is an alt group. You can't tell anyone what to do
> > here. If you don't like it, you can leave"
>
> On that count, I'm afraid, unless the a new moderated group is created
> and traffic is moved to that group (very difficult to accomplish,
> rendering this "probably not worth trying") he's right.  It *is* an
> alt.* newsgroup, and it isn't moderated.  Someone coming to this
> newsgroup for free advice needs to be prepared to get what they pay for.

It's not about end users coming here and getting free information. It's
about
him degrading people and the installation trade so that he can sell to
them.
Everyone here gives information to end users and to each other, freely,
but he
USES that, along with his lies to make a profit. That's wrong. No if
and's
or but's. It's wrong.


>
> > He uses this group as a fourm to sell his products to end users,
> > SPECIFICALLY against the FAQ.
>
> An FAQ is not a group charter.  Is there a charter for the group?  If
> so, is it posted to the group on a regular basis?
>
> > ... Now THAT's only SOME of the things that he's done here.
>
> But why are you trying to convince me that he should be banned from the
> group?  (perhaps you're not, but your message comes off sounding as
> though you are.)  I can be just as careful taking his advice as I am
> taking anyone else's.

I don't really care if you believe what I'm saying or not. I'm offering

what I believe to be a way to make it unprofitable for him to spend his
time here. You seem to be offering a way to write more words that every
one else is supposed to adhere to but that  he will ignore. And no
doubt
ignoring him will be the decree of your masterpiece. It aint gonna
happen.

>
> > Take a good look at that list and tell me what ignoring is going to do?
>
> It will bring you to accept the participants in this newsgroup, and the
> newsgroup itself, for what they are.  Is your professional reputation
> worth continuing trying to harm his?

You've obviously not noticed that no one is interested in selling
anything
to anyone here except Bass. So what does "reputation" have to do with
anything. Also you haven't noticed that no one knows who I am and
surely, never will. Fortunately, unlike some of Bass' victims, ( going
"real life" with them), I was smart enough to keep my identity
anonymous
from the very beginning. However, it's been observed by all that he's
made some attempts at finding out who I am and also Frank has
experienced
the same thing. He's made reference to where I might be located by
mentioning towns that he's sure I live in. Were he to locate me, I have
no doubt that he'd be telling lies about me to suppliers, associations,
and
I suspect he'd locate neighbors too. He's stated here and in other
groups that
he likes to do this to people that disagree with him.

>
> > Ignoring simply leaves him free to do what he does and end users,
> > being none the wiser, are taken in by his lies and misdirection and
> > "willingness" to help them.
>
> You may be underestimating end users.  Certainly I don't imagine that
> I'm an example of the average, but I also don't imagine that the average
> are not careful enough to consider more than one opinion when seeking
> free advice, then applying some common sense in deciding which opinion
> to follow if there are contradictions.

It's not the information that's in question. It's not even differences
in opinions
about the information. It's the means that the information was
obtained. It's the
lies about his experience. It's the derision that he's displayed in
obtaining it. It's
the innuendo about installers. It's the menacing of people with the
threat of going
real life with them if they oppose him.  It's the actual selling here
in ASA. It has
absolutely nothing to do with who is giving good information or not.
It's the
exploitation and derision that precedes it and from which it's derived.


>
> > ... he may very well give them everything he says he will, but at
> > the expense of the all the people he's stepped on in the meantime.
>
> Are you perhaps one of those people he's stepped on?  If not, please
> forgive my asking, because it seems as though you feel you are.  If so,
> one can hardly accept your points as being unbiased.

The only thing that he's ever done to me is steal a post describing a
technique and put it on his web site un-accredited. As if it were his
idea. Other than that I believe I feel just as everyone else does here
that he EXPLOITS the installation trade, this group and the people in
it,
to make a profit. I've decided that I will oppose what he does here. I
will
do exactly what he does to the group. If chaos abounds because of him
and people wont openly oppose him then they can't object to anyone
else doing the same thing ..... now can they...... More chaos among
chaos can't be complained about.

>
> > the others who frequent the group are ALSO helping the end users and
> > HE'S using that information to enhance his ability to make a sale.
>
> Had I come in here to determine whose services to hire, I admit that his
> would not be near the top of my list, but to be quite frank, neither
> would yours.

I don't sell anything here and I wouldn't sell to anyone here. I come
here
to offer the knowledge of my over 35 years of experience in this trade
and
to learn what I can. And I thought that I would have access to a
wider range of ideas, not existing locally. One of the things I used to
tell
newcomers to the group, who commented on the chaos, was ....
To stick around. Make a decision either to participate in the chaos or
not.
But either way, if you pick through the manure, you're likely to find
some diamonds. And it's true.
So, in short I really don't give a damn if you'd buy from me or not
since  I've got nothing to sell to you.

Though you're free to pick up diamonds wherever you might find them.

>
> > So ........Tell me now ........ did you want to re-think your advice
> > on what to do about Bass?
>
> No, but I don't believe I've convinced you either.  Your question above,
> and in fact your entire post, makes it clear that for you this has
> become a personal matter.  A newsgroup should not be permitted to become
> personal.

I can only answer you in one way.

This is an alt group. You can't tell anyone what to do here. You don't
control this
group or anyone in it. If you don't like it you can leave.

You catch on how that works now?  Neat huh?

>
> > How does one ignore a malignant, sinister SOB like that?
>
> One does not let the newsgroup become personal.

See above ..... Ditto

>
> > You're post is nice ....... And I know you're just trying to be
> > helpful ....... but .......... it's worthless in view of the deliberate
> > disrupting conduct of the villain we're dealing with.
>
> I would argue that your approach is no less disruptive.

Damn. I thought for sure I'd get a higher mark than Bass.
Sigh! I guess I just have to try harder.


Syl, you've got to understand. As long as Bass disrupts the group,
and incites altercations, there are going to be people who will protest

loudly and long at what he does to them. New people are coming
here all the time and mostly ultimately leave after a few run ins with
Bass,
or disagreeing with someone about what is occurring in this group.
So whether I continue to openly chastise Bass or not, chaos will
continue with others, as long as he remains relentless in
his quest to exploit this group. If no one ever says anything about him
to anyone coming here for help or advice there's no doubt that it will
encourage him to continue. For whatever my vociferous opposition
 may or may not do, it will at least get the attention of the
unsuspecting,
so that perhaps they'll take a second look and have second thoughts
about
doing business with such an unsavory person. If everyone were to make
a post showing their opposition to Bass, every time he tried to post,
he
would have no credibility with anyone who came here and then would
have no reason at all to stay except stubbornness.  Also and after all,

it cannot be considered simply a coincidence that most of the regulars
here, have, will, and do oppose what he does here.  So if he's gong
to continue doing what he does, ( whether he's ignored or outwardly
opposed) ....
I'd rather it be that he continues it while making fewer sales than
if everyone remained silent.

However ...... I do see in this thread that you are trying to do
something
else to try to "smooth the waters" It will be interesting to see what
comes
of it. I'd be willing to try something new but I have to say that in
the face
of what we've dealt with in the past, more words are not going to have
any
effect on his conduct. And I'll tell you right now, if it works and he
DOES
cooperate, so will I. If he doesn't ..... it's gonna be the SOS again.
You can
count on it. If he never returns and your "charter" is agreed upon, by
the
participants of ASA, it'll be a great thing for ASA and I'll embrace it
with
every bit of cooperation that I can muster.