Re: Re: Show report

[Chris Hunter <cjhunter@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Interesting to hear all the views ... I still thought it quite good /
ie: useful, and I learnt a few things that will certainly make a
difference for us ... but then it was our first time at SmartHomes, and
the only other HA show we've been to was UKHA' at Hatfield in 2004 !

'seems to me, too, that HA is still very much in its infancy, with
people still not seeing where really it could go - automating a few
simple functions is one thing, having it take care of things & assist
&
be helpful is quite another ! That's why I've been so keen on EIB, and
now also Idratek - they are attacking the big issues, in a consistent
way ! If I could put the two together, I'd be really happy !

Niko & Dupline look quite good, too. And Comfort, in its way. And I
think Hometronic make a lot of sense, as well, in a very well-contained
way - especially for retrofit, and for people who don't want to be
bothered with detail.

Thanks to Neil, again, for the tickets - like Paul, we tried several
times to have a word, but the Sensible Heat stand was everytime fully
occupied - which was a good thing, I guess !

Anyway, I was glad we went, and I look forward to the next UKHA' -
whenever that will be ! (?)

Chris

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Monday, 6 Mar'06 - 13:06:48 -0000

from: David Chapman david@xxxxxxx

I went on Thursday and would agree that although bigger there was
nothing really new in the Smarthomes bit and I felt most of it was way
off target.

By the nature of the main selfbuild part of the show almost all there
would be practical selfbuilding type people, yes they will use
professionals to help with certain aspects of their builds but almost
without exception they would not be get-a-man-in type people -
especially as the HA stuff comes towards the end of a build when
experience is high but when money is tight.

The Cedia presentation I sat through was cringing, like something from
The Office ... did the HA cause no good.

I think it needs a bit of a re-focus next year and maybe presentations
from selfbuilders showing what they have done with HA - what has worked
and what hasn't, the real costs, and what they would do next time.

Re: the stands, I'd really have liked to have seen:

an expandable wired alarm system that sits below Comfort (which is way
too complicated for most), say at the £200ish level, that allows
control
and monitoring from a browser - and remotely via ADSL - with ability to
send text messages maybe via a monitoring centre ... the BT Home Monitor
is close but like many others I don't like or trust wireless.

products ... built by pragmatic engineers to solve real problems - like
Kat5 !!

a PVR product that is at least as reliable & easy to use as a VCR.

and basic lighting automation ... most visitors here are amazed at our
ever so simple PIR outside light that sounds an audio alert in the house
and the fact we can control a dimmer switch with the TV remote (Varilight).

David C

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Monday, 6 Mar'06 - 13:39:39 -0000

noughtomate balraj_jassal@xxxxxxx

I would agree with those comments. I would have expected that this being
the only end-consumer HA show in the UK, that there would be a bias on
products that suit us home brewers. Practically, every stand I went to
asked me if I was an installer.

And whenever I enquired about X10 compatible products, I got puzzled
stares or looks of disgust!

And I loved the Computer Says No response from the Logitech stand ... .

This was my first visit to a HA show, as I only got into HA about a year
ago. For me, it wasn't worth the day off work and the petrol expense. I
would recommend to any newbies living down south to stick to the
forthcoming London one, if they really want to go.

Aside from the Media Mirror and the chatting to the Webrick guys - I
would prefer to stay at home and organise my sock drawer.

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Monday, 6 Mar'06 - 13:42:59 -0000

from: Keith Doxey ukha@xxxxxxx

It was certainly way off (my) budget !!!!

We sat through one presentation and after we left, one of the other
audience members came up and asked me for advice :)

Also got recognised when I was standing near the Hitachi stand ...

The dimmer modules for home systems are vastly overpriced and
under-rated for modern loads. Most seem to be about 1A per channels
which is fine for a 100W bulb but if someone is using Mains Halogen then
5 x 50W is too large a load for a single dimmer. When you consider that
these low power dimmers are usually £60+ per channel it starts to get
very expensive very quickly. Commercial dimmer packs are usually 5A or
10A per channel and there are several 4 x 5A DMX packs available for
under £100.

It was good to meet up with people again. I still feel full from
Saturday nights Indian feast :)

Keith

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Monday, 6 Mar'06 - 13:55:26 -0000

from: Keith Doxey ukha@xxxxxxx

>I would have expected that this being the only end-consumer HA show ...

You would have enjoyed UKHA 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 because that is where
the homebrew was king. As you are interested in a DIY approach then you
are an installer ....it's just that you dont have too many customers !

>and the chatting to the Webrick guys ...

Andy Harris is a great guy to talk to. I sat next to him during the meal
last year and had a very interesting discussion ...

Keith

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Monday, 6 Mar'06 - 14:27:23 -0000

from: neilball@xxxxxxx

You have to remember that stand space costs around £350 a square
metre,
then factor in the costs of stand materials, getting it
transported/built/dismantled and staffing/accommodation for five days so
it?s not surprising that show has the bias that is does. And the are you
self-building or in the trade is a simple (if somewhat blunt !) filter
to try and distinguish potential customers from the tyre kickers ? we?re
there to try and sell our products after all :-) Our little stand cost
us more than £10k when everything is factored in so I cannot even
begin
to imagine what Siemens must spend for their mobile home.

I was bemused by some of the stands who seemed to concentrate on showing
some of their big commercial projects rather than demonstrating what
they do for home owners, seemed to be missing the point from my
perspective.

Anyway the show?s over for another year so thanks to everyone who said
hello at the Sensible Heat stand and let us pitch our wares, most
visitors were very pleasant to talk to and no-one gave us too hard a time!

Neil B

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Monday, 6 Mar'06 - 15:33:10 -0000

from: paul@xxxxxxx

Hi Neil -

I did try to say hello on Saturday, but you were busy every time I
looked ... I did however, have a very productive chat with your colleague.

I'm quite impressed with the Hometronic system, it appears very complete
.... actually too complete for my needs (if there is such a thing !).
I'm at the point where I'm seriously tempted to explore it further, but
I also have this nagging feeling that it is overkill for my very modest
needs ... I already have a Comfort system, and I already have C-Busin
for lighting. Very shortly I will have the two of those linked up. I
also have a Homeseer PC which is fully conversant with Comfort. I
therefore have no need of Hometronics' own telephone or web interfaces,
since I already have both of those sorted (Comfort provides telephone
access, Homeseer provides web). I also have no need of any of
Hometronics' other lighting or HA functionality since that's all pretty
much taken care of too. In fact, the only piece that I do need is
bringing the existing central heating system under the control my
existing HA system ... I want to be able to have Comfort automatically
turn the heating off when there's no-one in the house ... don't bother
with any of this set-back nonsense ... the system doesn't take very long
to warm the place up from cold, so when we aren't there, we turn it off
... I also want to be able to dial and/or web-browse in from outside and
turn the heating on in advance (we came home to a cold house on Sunday
when we got back from the show) ... I'd also like to be able to turn the
heating on or off from anywhere in the house, and have feedback
available showing the current CH status ...

Lastly, I was a little bit concerned about the we supply, you fit, we
commission approach ... I'd prefer to have the whole package taken care
of in one go ... it's an impressive system, but I think I've just talked
myself out of trying to squeeze this one past credit control ;-) Will
keep it in mind for the next house though ... we plan on cashing in on
the Olympics in a few years !

Cheers

Paul G

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Monday, 6 Mar'06 - 17:11:24 -0000

from: neilball@xxxxxxx

Hi Paul -

It?s good to know you stopped by and hope Dave or Mervyn (it would have
been one or the other who spoke with you) did not get too carried away !!!

You are right about not needing many of the additional aspects of
Hometronic as your lighting is far more sophisticated than the Honeywell
offering. The only thing Hometronic could offer just now (without going
to the fully zoned system using the radiator TRV actuators) would be
simple single zone heating control with volt-free interfaces to Comfort
/ C-Bus to allow one or the other to provide the remote access. This
would provide the link to activate the Coming Home Lifestyle and switch
on the heating before you get there. Don?t overlook the set-back issue ?
it?s mainly used for frost / condensation protection when you are away
from the house so can be vital if you are away for more than a day or
two during very cold weather. In this case the set-back temperature is
around ten-degrees. I?ve had a customer in Inverness install a fully
zoned system and uses a simple volt free interface module to connect to
Homevision so he can use the HV web browser as his remote access and use
it to switch Hometronic into Away mode automatically when the alarm
system is fully set. He then uses the web interface to select a number
of different modes before he gets home.

So you can use the system to provide single zone control using a relay
module and wireless room sensor in combination with the Hometronic
Manager and have remote access from other systems using the Hometronic
Input module to receive volt-free signals. It?s technically possible but
the costs probably don?t stack up. Hardware for such a setup would cost
£750 plus VAT at full retail, plus commissioning. That said there is
no
reason why you should not ask for a discount or even the possibility of
a potential bulk buy ;-) Then again it would be quite easy to set up
most of this functionality via Comfort (as Gareth was looking to do) or
C-Bus at a fraction of this cost and in a way that is easy to put back
to normal when you move.

The Hometronic installation is a doddle. Any competent person could
install and wire the system, it?s mainly wireless after all. If you use
the radiator motorised TRV actuators for zoning then there is no need
for any additional plumbing providing your radiators already have
suitable valves. Accessing the boiler terminals in most cases does not
require the boiler casing to be removed, there is usually a hidden screw
or two that then drops a panel at the front of the boiler. We often
modify the simple wiring drawings to show the precise terminals to wire
to as long as we can find the info on the web or from the boiler
manufacturer. Commissioning is not difficult, mainly push button binding
of modules. But as the system has so many different applications the
combination of button pushing, configuration of the limited number of
parameters etc means it is quite easy to make the same hardware do very
different things. We could try and produce a training course to cover
all of these applications but we would probably end up needing to charge
more for the training than it would cost for the commissioning of most
systems. That?s why we offer to let customers be as active in the
commissioning as they wish to be. It becomes a sort of unofficial
training course based on your own installation for those that want it
and means that any future system expansion does not require us to visit
/ charge again as you would have a good idea of what needs to be done
and we can easily support the process remotely by phone or email.

Glad you found the kit interesting and I?ll keep my fingers crossed that
the effect has the results you are looking for :-)

Regards

Neil B