Re: Power & signal & control

[Chris Hunter <cjhunter@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Nigel -

thanks .... there's lots to think about !

'wonder what cable would be required for digital video distribution ...
what would have enough bandwidth to cover future possibilities ... I
suppose teh answer could be fibre optic ... ie: an empty conduit, for now ?

Chris



Nigel Giddings wrote:

> Chris,
>
> I missed your e-mail of the 26/12, I've been helping a cousin with his
> bathroom and work through my e-mails backwards...
>
> The idea of a Node 0 (Central Point) feeding to strategically sub
nodes
> is, in my opinion, a good idea. This has to be a balance depending on
> cost/distance/flexibility/space requirements. I actually have a Node 0
> and a Node '3', which is located in the loft, and feeds the loft and
1st
> floor. I have actually numbered my floors 0-Basement, 1-Ground Floor,
> 2-1st Floor, 3-Loft Space, hence Node 3.
>
> Node 3 will be used as a sub location for the C-Bus, sensor wiring
> (Temperature, window contacts, movement detection) it will also house
> the whole house audio amps for the 1st floor, DECT base-station, WAPs,
> 'Fixed' GSM Mobile.
>
> The 230v supply will be star wired, both outlets (16a) and lights. I
> also intend to use a number of 5a lighting sockets. These will be
wired
> to the nearest node.
>
> One point to note with star wiring 230v is that you need to have cable
> based on the MCB ratingof the circuit so if you have a 30A breaker you
> will need 4mm to the outlets if wired radially. Using a 16A breaker
will
> mean you can use 2.5mm. There is no reason why you couldn't have sub
> fuse boxes in each of your nodes, each one supplied by 10mm or
whatever
> depending on load, then each circuit de-rated with the appropriate
MCB.
>
> With the CAT5e wiring you are limited to 100m for 100Meg data, this
> might mean you need sub nodes if you have a big house with awkward
> runs... A data switch in each node with a single cable linking them
> together with local runs to outlets is the commercial standard. The
> linking cable may be at 100M or better 1000M.
>
> I have not lived with my own solution yet so I can't comment on
> practical experience. But having some 'Super' points with flexibility
> has to be a good idea. Places like behind the, main telly, in the
study,
> probably in the kitchen, Master bedroom if you will have a media
centre,
> Games/Cinema room... oh hell every room????
>
> What is going to be important is a flexible face plate solution, come
> people have adopted the clipsal range where as I am drawn to the RPP
> wall plates
> http://www.proteusswitchgear.co.uk/downloads/easyclip.pdf
>
> HTH
>
> Nigel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Hunter [mailto:cjhunter@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: 26 December 2005 08:47
> To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Power & signal & control
>
> Still thinking ... if I do run cables from a base-point - the
> consumer unit location (say) - to a limited number of carefully
> chosen subsidiary points around the house (on a rough count, there
> could be fifteen such points, spread over three floors), then how
> many cables would I need to run ?   I've tried to make a list :
>
> 1: mains power - 13 or 30amp ? - one to each subsidiary point, then
> starred to however many sockets
> 2. control / signal - EIB or CBUS twisted pair - one to each
> subsidiary point, then starred to each power socket
> 3. land-line - BT telephone, or Cable, or Broadband - one to each
> subsidiary point
> 4. ethernet - 100/10 or giga - one to each subsidiary point - maybe
two
> 5. video (...) - one to each subsidiary point, maybe more
>
> Maybe item 3. is redundant - better connect via computer, via
> ethernet and/or wifi ...
> Maybe items 4. & 5. are both cat5e or cat6 & will later be
re-run as
> fibre-optic ...
>
> I think I've read that mains & EIB can be run together, but that
> mains & CBUS must be run 150mm apart ... ?
>
> Presumably mains & fibre-optic could be run together ... 'wonder
if
> it might be more economic to go straight to fibre-optic - more
> expensive cable, but less expensive installation - one cable instead
> of several & less conduit & less pfaff ?
>
> (sorry for the thinking out loud - new to all this, still a bit
> muddled !)
>
> Chris
>
> PS: actually wrote the above on Christmas Day, while everyone else
> was having a short snooze / watching something on the telly ...
>
>
>
> On 24 Dec 2005, at 11:02, Chris Hunter wrote:
>
> > Nigel -
> >
> > Interesting ... and yes, it's a great shame the costs as they
work-
> > out don't favour flexibility.
> >
> > Given your node-0 approach on signaling / control, I guess you
will
> > also have no ring-mains for the power circuits - only star / tree
> > arrangements (what I called radial) ...
> >
> > I imagine power line flexibility will be in terms of
extendability
> > rather than re-running ... the trends being for more devices of
lower
> > power ... and maybe the same goes for signal lines ... but not
for
> > data-lines, for which the trends seems to be strongly for ever
> > increasing capacities, and increasing separation from power-lines
...
> > until fibre-optic becomes the norm, that is.
> >
> > 'must say, I'm tempted to go for running two tubes (one for power
&
> > signal, one for data) to a limited number of carefully chosen
> > specific points in various positions around the house ... with
the
> > tubes large enough to allow doubling and even trebling of cables
in
> > the future ... and the tubes being run in the floors (that being
> > where all our other pipes are being run - ventilation,
waste-water,
> > and plumbing) ... all of which seems to be rather the same as
your
> > approach, with us having to use tubes rather than your voids,
just
> > because of our structural arrangements (concrete for walls &
> > floors) ...
> >
> > We've got our shell almost done now - weather-proof & secure
- but I
> > think I'm rather regretting we didn't think all this through more
> > fully at the design stage ... ie; right down to the last detail
...
> > in the traditional way, we left the details to be sorted out
during
> > the actual build ... an approach that has left us with a more
> > complicated job than might have been, in the fitting-out ...
> >
> > I was attracted to the idea of sockets in the floor, but it's
what we
> > have at work, and there the arrangement has proved awkward,
> > inconvenient, and vulnerable to damage ...
> >
> > Not an easy one to solve ... !!   Houses must have been simple in
the
> > days before we needed all this infrastructure !
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > On 21 Dec 2005, at 09:23, Nigel Giddings wrote:
> >
> > > Chris,
> > >
> > > I think you have fundamentally the right idea,
flexibility...
> > >
> > > I also think you need some sort 'cable route' around the
rooms...
> > >
> > > But it will be more expensive to install, probably at least
3 times
> > > the
> > > price...
> > >
> > > The idea of running a 'bus' for mains power is a bit of a
non-
> > > starter at
> > > this time, I also think your BCO would have a fit... I do
agree
> > > that the
> > > radial (a type of bus?) does not suit home automation unless
you
> > > want to
> > > go X10 and if you are starting from scratch I wouldn't start
with
> > X10.
> > >
> > > I have combined the cable route round the building, by
routing
> > > under the
> > > ground floor in the basement ceiling space and above the 1st
floor
> > > using
> > > the loft, rather than having a duct in the actual rooms...
> > Getting to
> > > room mounted ducts after you have decorated would be
difficult?
> > >
> > > I have then piped from these 'trunk routes' to each of the
points in
> > > each room. 2 x 20mm metal conduits to deep double back
boxes. Metal
> > > conduit to improve RFI rejection and two pipes one for High
Voltage
> > > (HV)
> > > and the other for Low Voltage (LV).
> > >
> > > The disadvantage is that you still need to nominate socket
and
> > switch
> > > positions for the first fix stage... I have been relatively
generous
> > > with this ensuring each corner has an 'outlet' and that an
> > > appliance can
> > > be located anywhere without trailing cables across a door or
even
> > > under
> > > a window. I also have sockets set in the floor using floor
boxes so
> > > that
> > > the desk in the study can act as an island and the
telephone, laptop
> > > power supply etc comes from under the desk.... All these are
routed
> > > back
> > > to the 'trunk routes' with between 2 and 5 metres of
conduit...
> > >
> > > If you still want to build the 'flexible' home let me know
and I'll
> > > pass
> > > on a few more of my ideas.
> > >
> > > A picture says a thousand words, and I have a lot of
pictures...
> > > See http://photos.corbenic.co.uk
> > >
> > > HTH
> > >
> > > Nigel
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Chris Hunter [mailto:cjhunter@xxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: 20 December 2005 19:07
> > > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [ukha_d] Power & signal & control
> > >
> > >
> > > I had thought we might run a box-conduit around all rooms of
our
> > > self-build, set surface-flush into the walls, to carry power
&
> > > signal &
> > > control cables.
> > >
> > > Then we could tap into them where-ever required, and easily
> > replace /
> > > update the cables as necessary, in the future.
> > >
> > > But is there a better way, I wonder ?   Signal & power
cables have
> > > to be
> > >
> > > kept apart.   Tapping into the cables would be a fiddle -
cutting &
> > > stripping & making screw-terminal joints, etc, etc.  
And conduit
> > > is not
> > >
> > > cheap.
> > >
> > > But future-proofing demands flexibility !
> > >
> > > Is there a better way, I wonder ?
> > >
> > > For example, separate bare mains wires, with crocodile
clips,
> > and / or
> > > insulation-piercing connections ?
> > >
> > > Or ... ?
> > >
> > > And what size cables should I use ?
> > >
> > > I'm not a fan of ring-mains, star-runs seem better ...
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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