RE: Power & signal & control

["Nigel Giddings" <nigel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Chris,

I missed your e-mail of the 26/12, I've been helping a cousin with his
bathroom and work through my e-mails backwards...

The idea of a Node 0 (Central Point) feeding to strategically sub nodes
is, in my opinion, a good idea. This has to be a balance depending on
cost/distance/flexibility/space requirements. I actually have a Node 0
and a Node '3', which is located in the loft, and feeds the loft and 1st
floor. I have actually numbered my floors 0-Basement, 1-Ground Floor,
2-1st Floor, 3-Loft Space, hence Node 3.

Node 3 will be used as a sub location for the C-Bus, sensor wiring
(Temperature, window contacts, movement detection) it will also house
the whole house audio amps for the 1st floor, DECT base-station, WAPs,
'Fixed' GSM Mobile.

The 230v supply will be star wired, both outlets (16a) and lights. I
also intend to use a number of 5a lighting sockets. These will be wired
to the nearest node.

One point to note with star wiring 230v is that you need to have cable
based on the MCB ratingof the circuit so if you have a 30A breaker you
will need 4mm to the outlets if wired radially. Using a 16A breaker will
mean you can use 2.5mm. There is no reason why you couldn't have sub
fuse boxes in each of your nodes, each one supplied by 10mm or whatever
depending on load, then each circuit de-rated with the appropriate MCB.

With the CAT5e wiring you are limited to 100m for 100Meg data, this
might mean you need sub nodes if you have a big house with awkward
runs... A data switch in each node with a single cable linking them
together with local runs to outlets is the commercial standard. The
linking cable may be at 100M or better 1000M.

I have not lived with my own solution yet so I can't comment on
practical experience. But having some 'Super' points with flexibility
has to be a good idea. Places like behind the, main telly, in the study,
probably in the kitchen, Master bedroom if you will have a media centre,
Games/Cinema room... oh hell every room????

What is going to be important is a flexible face plate solution, come
people have adopted the clipsal range where as I am drawn to the RPP
wall plates
http://www.proteusswitchgear.co.uk/downloads/easyclip.pdf

HTH

Nigel

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Hunter [mailto:cjhunter@xxxxxxx]
Sent: 26 December 2005 08:47
To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ukha_d] Power & signal & control

Still thinking ... if I do run cables from a base-point - the
consumer unit location (say) - to a limited number of carefully
chosen subsidiary points around the house (on a rough count, there
could be fifteen such points, spread over three floors), then how
many cables would I need to run ?   I've tried to make a list :

1: mains power - 13 or 30amp ? - one to each subsidiary point, then
starred to however many sockets
2. control / signal - EIB or CBUS twisted pair - one to each
subsidiary point, then starred to each power socket
3. land-line - BT telephone, or Cable, or Broadband - one to each
subsidiary point
4. ethernet - 100/10 or giga - one to each subsidiary point - maybe two
5. video (...) - one to each subsidiary point, maybe more

Maybe item 3. is redundant - better connect via computer, via
ethernet and/or wifi ...
Maybe items 4. & 5. are both cat5e or cat6 & will later be re-run
as
fibre-optic ...

I think I've read that mains & EIB can be run together, but that
mains & CBUS must be run 150mm apart ... ?

Presumably mains & fibre-optic could be run together ... 'wonder if
it might be more economic to go straight to fibre-optic - more
expensive cable, but less expensive installation - one cable instead
of several & less conduit & less pfaff ?

(sorry for the thinking out loud - new to all this, still a bit
muddled !)

Chris

PS: actually wrote the above on Christmas Day, while everyone else
was having a short snooze / watching something on the telly ...



On 24 Dec 2005, at 11:02, Chris Hunter wrote:

> Nigel -
>
> Interesting ... and yes, it's a great shame the costs as they work-
> out don't favour flexibility.
>
> Given your node-0 approach on signaling / control, I guess you will
> also have no ring-mains for the power circuits - only star / tree
> arrangements (what I called radial) ...
>
> I imagine power line flexibility will be in terms of extendability
> rather than re-running ... the trends being for more devices of lower
> power ... and maybe the same goes for signal lines ... but not for
> data-lines, for which the trends seems to be strongly for ever
> increasing capacities, and increasing separation from power-lines ...
> until fibre-optic becomes the norm, that is.
>
> 'must say, I'm tempted to go for running two tubes (one for power
&
> signal, one for data) to a limited number of carefully chosen
> specific points in various positions around the house ... with the
> tubes large enough to allow doubling and even trebling of cables in
> the future ... and the tubes being run in the floors (that being
> where all our other pipes are being run - ventilation, waste-water,
> and plumbing) ... all of which seems to be rather the same as your
> approach, with us having to use tubes rather than your voids, just
> because of our structural arrangements (concrete for walls &
> floors) ...
>
> We've got our shell almost done now - weather-proof & secure - but
I
> think I'm rather regretting we didn't think all this through more
> fully at the design stage ... ie; right down to the last detail ...
> in the traditional way, we left the details to be sorted out during
> the actual build ... an approach that has left us with a more
> complicated job than might have been, in the fitting-out ...
>
> I was attracted to the idea of sockets in the floor, but it's what we
> have at work, and there the arrangement has proved awkward,
> inconvenient, and vulnerable to damage ...
>
> Not an easy one to solve ... !!   Houses must have been simple in the
> days before we needed all this infrastructure !
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> On 21 Dec 2005, at 09:23, Nigel Giddings wrote:
>
> > Chris,
> >
> > I think you have fundamentally the right idea, flexibility...
> >
> > I also think you need some sort 'cable route' around the rooms...
> >
> > But it will be more expensive to install, probably at least 3
times
> > the
> > price...
> >
> > The idea of running a 'bus' for mains power is a bit of a non-
> > starter at
> > this time, I also think your BCO would have a fit... I do agree
> > that the
> > radial (a type of bus?) does not suit home automation unless you
> > want to
> > go X10 and if you are starting from scratch I wouldn't start with
> X10.
> >
> > I have combined the cable route round the building, by routing
> > under the
> > ground floor in the basement ceiling space and above the 1st
floor
> > using
> > the loft, rather than having a duct in the actual rooms...
> Getting to
> > room mounted ducts after you have decorated would be difficult?
> >
> > I have then piped from these 'trunk routes' to each of the points
in
> > each room. 2 x 20mm metal conduits to deep double back boxes.
Metal
> > conduit to improve RFI rejection and two pipes one for High
Voltage
> > (HV)
> > and the other for Low Voltage (LV).
> >
> > The disadvantage is that you still need to nominate socket and
> switch
> > positions for the first fix stage... I have been relatively
generous
> > with this ensuring each corner has an 'outlet' and that an
> > appliance can
> > be located anywhere without trailing cables across a door or even
> > under
> > a window. I also have sockets set in the floor using floor boxes
so
> > that
> > the desk in the study can act as an island and the telephone,
laptop
> > power supply etc comes from under the desk.... All these are
routed
> > back
> > to the 'trunk routes' with between 2 and 5 metres of conduit...
> >
> > If you still want to build the 'flexible' home let me know and
I'll
> > pass
> > on a few more of my ideas.
> >
> > A picture says a thousand words, and I have a lot of pictures...
> > See http://photos.corbenic.co.uk
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > Nigel
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chris Hunter [mailto:cjhunter@xxxxxxx]
> > Sent: 20 December 2005 19:07
> > To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx
> > Subject: [ukha_d] Power & signal & control
> >
> >
> > I had thought we might run a box-conduit around all rooms of our
> > self-build, set surface-flush into the walls, to carry power
&
> > signal &
> > control cables.
> >
> > Then we could tap into them where-ever required, and easily
> replace /
> > update the cables as necessary, in the future.
> >
> > But is there a better way, I wonder ?   Signal & power cables
have
> > to be
> >
> > kept apart.   Tapping into the cables would be a fiddle - cutting
&
> > stripping & making screw-terminal joints, etc, etc.   And
conduit
> > is not
> >
> > cheap.
> >
> > But future-proofing demands flexibility !
> >
> > Is there a better way, I wonder ?
> >
> > For example, separate bare mains wires, with crocodile clips,
> and / or
> > insulation-piercing connections ?
> >
> > Or ... ?
> >
> > And what size cables should I use ?
> >
> > I'm not a fan of ring-mains, star-runs seem better ...
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------oooo0oooo-------
> > 21/12/2005
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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